strange amanita-looking species from Denmark

[cherrybee]

Originally Posted by cherrybee

Something wrong with the page on this thread.It seems twice the width of the others cannot read the tread without scrolling sideways for each line of text and cannot see index of threads either.It is only this particular thread very odd the others are fine

Hmm very strange its ok now.Has someone put it right or have I finally lost it altogether

[Angelo_Xanthi]

A hearty welcome to shremage, though I'm sorry we have to disagree on our first encounter...

Well, the depicted mushroom is by no means a Cystoderma, for various reasons: firstly, Cystodermas have a sheath on the stipe starting off from the base and ending higher up on the stipe in a flaring scaly ring. The ring we see here is clearly membranous, and hangs like a skirt from the apex of the stipe. In addition, what I can see on the part below the ring can't be a sheath. Secondly, the cap of C. is granular, whereas the cap here has only UV remnans on it. Thirdly, the size of C. is much smaller than what (judging by the surrounding leaves, grasses etc.) the size of the present mushroom is. Fourthly, the size ratio of cap/stipe is different from that of C.

In my opinion, it can only be an Amanita rubescens.

[fvlfungi]

Originally Posted by shremage

Most probable Cystoderma......very close to some forms of Cystoderma fallax.

I've been around the Cytoderma (actually if you right-click on my photo, you can see I gave it that name. But the ring is hanging on cystoderma it should turn upwards.

So maybe the others are right. It's just an Amanita rubenscens with a wierd look.

[shremage]

QUOTE:
" '...........is by no means a Cystoderma.............. Cystodermas have a sheath on the stipe starting off from the base and ending higher up on the stipe in a flaring scaly ring. The ring we see here is clearly membranous, and hangs like a skirt from the apex of the stipe. "


Cystoderma have species with membranous annuli including both the species mentioned in the links provided above in which one mentions this, and is also mentioned in the taxonomic descriptions for these species.
Never heard that restriction placed on the genus before.....

For the shrooms in question the top of the annulus and upper stipe are concolorous and if the flare has folded down(collapsed) or been run over by a slug could appear continuous to the top with the lighting. Looking on left side of shroom on left, it doesn't appear to have this huge apically attatched skirt and what we could be seeing is just a collapsed membranous flare though difficult from pics. The remnant piece still adherant to the right side of the shroom on right laying down if still attatched, appears as it may possibly be still slightly flared and if looked at closely underneath looks to be possibly identically adorned as the lower stipe and continuous with it. On the mushroom to the right laying down see no evidence of a huge voluminous apically attatched skirt whatsoever but only remnants of something much smaller. Mushrooms with flaring annuli can commonly become collapsed such as in Cystoderma, Agaricus, etc..


Here is an example of Cystoderma carcharius with some demonstrating a collapsing membranous annulus with a superior attatchment on stipe along with identical patterning to the shroom in question below the annular. .....
Cystoderma carcharias ,Starkriechender Körnchenschirmling

Another C. carcharius on left (laying down) with a collapsed membranous annulus......notice how similiar this annulus looks to the piece of annulus still adherant to shroom on right (laying down) in the pic of the shrooms in question.
Google Image Result for http://www.pilzgalerie.de/Cystoderma_carcharias_2.jpg

Another of C.carcharius with a collapsing membranous annulus....
Google Image Result for http://perso.orange.fr/p.bineau/smf/photo_champi/images/thumbnails/thumbnail141.jpg

Another shroom Cystoderma jasonis showing classic Cystoderma patterning below the ring pretty much almost identical to our shrooms here though not this species. Cystoderma amianthinum can have almost identical covering on the lower stipe also.
http://www.mycolim.be/600x450/Cystod...ed_4284_TD.jpg


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QUOTE:
" In addition, what I can see on the part below the ring can't be a sheath. "



These shrooms (in question) show classic Cystoderma (Rubescens ?) ornamentation below the ring as evidenced by the links provided especially C. carcharius which is also documented in Denmark..

One of the links provided above shows same coloring below ring and also lists the ring as membranous in the description.

************************************


QUOTE:
" Secondly, the cap of C. is granular, whereas the cap here has only UV remnans on it."


Look closely at left side of the cap on left highlighted by indirect light. Looks like it could possibly fall under the catagory of granular to me......and patchiness can be developed by expansion of the cap.as in Amanita. Also for instance here is part of the taxonomic description for the cap of C. fallax on Mykoweb......." granules or small erect scales, " ....it also states it has a "membranous veil." .......I'm speaking strictly toward characteristics of the genus Cystoderma...don't believe this a variant of C. fallax.

Once again restrictions on a whole genus and no variables ?....especially in Denmark.

And this demonstrates how disassociated the cap covering can become in Cystoderma as the cap expands resulting in warts in some species and not just a homogenous granular covering.(which are also easily removed).
Immagine:Cystoderma sp.jpg - Wikipedia



**********************************


QUOTE:
" the size of C. is much smaller than what (judging by the surrounding leaves, grasses etc.) the size of the present mushroom is...."


Once again speaking to the genus....some Cystoderma can get to over 8cm (not to mention the ones I don't know about (which is most Cystoderma)

Cystoderma carcharius in the limited descripts I've seen can consistantly get to 6 cm cap and sizes for found mushrooms always range larger than the descripts. Looking at the pics these seem to just about fit judging surrounding leaf sizes but definately not a large discrepinsy.




Cystoderma fallax with a collapsing membranous annulus
Google Image Result for http://users.skynet.be/bs133881/champis/photos/cystoderma_fallax_(yd)_2.jpg

Here's a couple quoted partial descriptions for Cystoderma carcharius...

Cap and Stem:.....".pale, dingy white, and often pink-tinted, persistent membranous ring, and most importantly strong unpleasant odor; description is derived from Breitenbach except ....."

Cap;........" dingy white to pale gray, usually with a pink tint......"

[Angelo_Xanthi]

Dear shremage,
first of all I admit that it was my mistake to say that no Cystoderma has a membranous ring. C. carcharias (please note: not carcharius) does have a membranous ring (though scaly/granular on the underside) and I'd like to thank you for pointing that out. However, what I meant was that it was no membranous ring like that of some amanitas. Still, it was wrong of me.

The issue now is to decide whether the mushroom depicted at the top of this page could be a Cystoderma sp. This could be a possibility if we looked only at the lower part of the stipe or even at some parts of the cap. But the ring I see there makes me rule out this possibility. A Cystoderma ring should be a continuation of the sheath and should flare (or open outwards - and even its edge could hang downwards if its diameter was large enough, as in some of your links - purely a consequence of gravity). In the picture we see that the supposedly granular wine-red scales on the lower part of the stipe clearly fade out before the point were the ring seems to be hanging from, leaving a smooth white space in between. The ring looks much too long for any of the cystoderma rings in any of the pictures under your links (or in any cystoderma photos I've seen anywhere) and starts off way too high up.

I've checked all my books and part of the internet, and no author gives a cap diameter larger that 10 cm for any Cystoderma, and that only as an exceptional case. Only one Cystoderma species, namely C. terrei (= C. cinnabarinum), is supposed to reach that cap diameter, the rest hardly ever reaching 6cm. Actually, this species is the only one that could bear some chromatic resemblance to the one we have here, and have at the same time a cap diameter large enough to match that of the one here depicted. However, C. terrei has only a "faint ring zone, is white-fibrillose under it and only sparsely covered with dark orange squamules" (Breitenbach & Kranzlin's "Fungi of Switzerland").

For the above mentioned reasons, I can't be convinced (at least not from the photo alone) that what we have here could be a Cystoderma sp. Of course, that is what I think. Anyone interested in forming their own opinion can do their own research, look at books, photos etc., read the arguments presented, and make up their own minds.

P.S.: Did you know that "carcharias" is the Greek word for "shark"?

[fvlfungi]

Interesting debate about this species - but I'll guess I have to accept that without no physical material we don't come much closer. So I must hope to find it again next autumn.

I found C. carcharias on the same trip - but under conifers and it was a smaller species and had quite different colors
Flemming V. Larsen Fungi Photo

But thanks to "Shremage" for all the research and link to web-photos. Allthough I think one of them looks more like a pholiota (with brown spores) than a cystoderma
Immagine:Cystoderma sp.jpg - Wikipedia

[Angelo_Xanthi]

Hi everyone

I share fvl's opinion about the Pholiota looking species under the wikipedia link.

I'd like to whole-heartedly recommend fvl's site for mushrooms. I just visited it and I can say that it's a great site with a lot of excellent photos! I believe everyone should have a look and I'm sure you'll all enjoy what you'll see. The link is: Svampelisten

Congratulations, fvl!