ID help

[mollisia]

Hello,

I would have little doubt that this is a Cortinarius. You can even see the rusty spore print at the right side of the stem of the bigger fruitbody. Amnd moreover, I would be quite certain for subgenus Phlegmacium. There are a lot of species with white veil, and such pale gills. E.g. C. vulpinus (but this one would be darker on the cap and richer in veil), or balteatus (as already mentioned) or C. crassus. For crassus the serrulate gills would also suite, because it has big cystidia (what is an extreme exception in Cortinarius). But I coukld also imagine that one to be one from the Cortinarius fraudulosus-argutus group!

Here is a picture of Cortinarius fraudulosus, but be aware that this is a species from conifers. But there are similar species in that group that grow with decidous trees, especially with poplar.



Cortinarii are not too much time consuming in microscopin g, as there is only the spores to look at usually.

best regards,
Andreas

[Ken Burgess]

Originally Posted by fairplay

Corr, don't you think our Ken is cruel Nick ?

Leaving it late, just to let us get ourselves into a right old pickle !

I didn't leave it late... I just haven't got much time to check on the forum these days. And in any case it seems Andreas is now pointing towards Cortinarius, although I have to disagree with his evidence regarding a rusty-brown spore print on the stem. The colour on the stem looks remarkably similar to the cap colour to me and I don't think it is from the spores. But I won't argue with the suggestion of Cortinarius because I don't see enough of these to have much of a clue, except for some of the very common species.

Originally Posted by fairplay

What is the best way to distinguish between 'fringed gill edges' and 'serrated edges' ?

I wasn't trying to distinguish between fringed and serrated, although I guess fringed would suggest smaller serrations, as does Andreas's use of serrulate. I was just making the point that the gill edges were distinctive because of the cystidia lining them.

Ken

[ohgreatstew]

Looks like I'm back in the game then (at least for the continarius group bit), who would have thought it, good work Andreas I'm sticking with you....

[Ken Burgess]

Originally Posted by mollisia

Cortinarii are not too much time consuming in microscoping,

I rarely spend any time on microscopy keying out Cortinarii... because you have to have narrowed down the options with macroscopic characters before the spores become at all relevant, and I usually fall at that first hurdle!

Ken

[fairplay]

Well all I can say is that this has been one of the most exciting threads on the WAB Fungi Forum for a very long time, taking in Hebeloma, Cortinarius, Tricholoma, back to Hebeloma and then Cortinarius again.

And this is the GENUS we are talking about here - not just the species level, it must be very rare to have disagreements over the genus.

Neil.

Edit. Maybe Chris was right all along, microfungi are easier !
IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, WE CAN ONLY GO BY PHOTOGRAPHS HERE, WHICH IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO HOLDING THE SPECIMEN IN THE HAND.

[Ken Burgess]

Originally Posted by fairplay

And this is the GENUS we are talking about here - not just the species level, it must be very rare to have disagreements over the genus.

... which just goes to show it is something unusual we are dealing with here. I wonder how many people on WAB have seen any of the species of Cortinarius Andreas mentions?

And although I'm sure Andreas is right in bringing us round to Cortinarius he has left lots of options on the table for the actual species.

As an interesting aside, for Cortinarius crassus Karl Soop (a Swedish Cortinarius expert) notes that:

'Because of its deviating characters, the species has sometimes been placed in Hebeloma, and even in a special genus Meliderma Vel.'

But, according to Karl Soop, Cortinarius crassus is a species that grows with spruce, so that seems to rule that out. But it's obviously one that could easily be confused with that species, certainly by those of us who rarely, if ever, see these species.

Ken

PS The Basidiomycota Checklist says for Cortinarius crassus:

'Habitat: On soil, associated with Pinus sylvestris and Betula spp., in Caledonian pinewoods.

Notes: Rarely reported. English collections at K are misidentified C. balteatoalbus.'

[RobSutton]

Thanks for all your suggestions folks. It does really reinforce the idea that to get an accurate identification you need a lot more than just a photograph, it's one of those frustrating incidents where time was definitely against me.

I just hope it makes a reappearance next year. Luckily it's was in a spot I can easily get to, and if it does I'll make sure I do a better job next time and give you a bit more evidence to work on. As always there's a lot of good hints and ideas in your comments that I will bear in mind.

Thanks again.

[ohgreatstew]

Next time I suggest you take it on holiday with you Rob......