Amanita pantherina, poisonous or not ?

[kiltoncomp]

while seaching the A to Z for clues to the id of two Amanitas i had found,
i came across this in the decription for A.pantherina , "While not poisonous, this fungi is psychoactive and contains the same chemicals as Muscaria and Gemmata, and it is the most potent of the three. However, it lack's the nasty lethal toxins found in phalloides and virosa. "

while in Michael Jordans book it is described as " poisonous, perhaps lethal" and "do not attempt to taste any part of the specimen"

has new research shown that it is no longer believed to be lethaly poisonous, or is there an error somewhere here ?


Brian.

[thelawnet]

Well Amanita Muscaria has apparently caused at least one death, and Pantherina is basically a stronger version of Muscaria, so I guess there's your answer.

Tripping on Muscaria is not a good idea, and I guess Pantherina even less so.

See http://www.namyco.org/images/publica...ShawBeug_2.pdf

"I have also always been curious about the fact that the poisonings that we see from Amanita pantherina in the Pacific Northwest sometimes seem more
severe than poisonings by Amanita muscaria. Nearly 30 years ago, on my first Sabbatical, I was working with Dr. Scott Chilton on extracting a mystery
toxin from Amanita pantherina that we do not see in Amanita muscaria. While we failed in our attempts to identify this other toxin, we did observe that
the dark-capped collections of Amanita pantherina had a lot more muscimol and ibotenic acid than the light-capped collections of Amanita pantherina."

It's quite possible that the strains in this country are more dangerous, or less, than the ones in the US of course.

My searches revealed quite a few people have taken Pantherina as a hallucinogen. You're basically taking an overdose of somewhat toxic hallucinogens, rather than eating something that's going to kill your liver/whatever.

[wildherbalian85]

It has potential to be deadly but that really is dependant on how much was consumed. It is also likely that if a leathal dose was consumed then the person who had consumed it would likely be able to in this day and age recieve medical help and be able to live to tell the story.


I really don't understand why some books/ websites will say leathal and others will say harmfull... it is stupid

[thelawnet]

More:

The clinical features and management of nine cases of mushroom poisoning due to Amanita pantherina (eight cases) and Amanita muscaria (one case) admitted to a children's hospital are described. Most ingestions were in the toddler age group with males being more frequently involved. Symptoms occurred between 30-180 min with the onset of central nervous system depression, ataxia, waxing and waning obtundation, hallucinations, intermittent hysteria or hyperkinetic behavior. Vomiting was rare. Seizures or myoclonic twitching occurred in 4/9 patients, but was controlled with standard anticonvulsant therapy. No other anticholinergic or cholinergic signs were prominent. Recovery was rapid and complete in all patients.

--

Active toxins present in the panther cap (A. pantherina) (DC ex Fr.) Secr are ibotenic acid and muscimol, which are rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. It is likely that other substances also participate in the psychotropic effects. Five frayed panther cap fruiting bodies were eaten by mistake by two persons (27 and 47 years of age). Symptoms onset occurred after 120 min with central nervous system (CNS) depression, ataxia, waxing and waning obtundation, religious hallucinations and hyperkinetic behaviour. In the present case, successful general symptomatic treatment was administered, which consisted of controlling the nervous symptoms and stabilizing the electrolyte balance. The poisoning regressed with no organ complications.

--

Forty-seven specimens representing 35 species or varieties of Amanita were examined for the presence of ibotenic acid, muscimol, stizolobic acid, stizolobinic acid, aminohexadienoic acid and chlorocrotylglycine. In addition, crude extracts of A. muscaria were examined chromatographically for the presence of methyltetrahydrocarboline carboxylic acid (MTC). Ibotenic acid and muscimol were found in clearly detectable concentrations in extracts of A. cothurnata, all specimens of A. muscaria, all specimens of A. pantherina and in lower concentrations in A. gemmata. Stizolobic acid and stizobinic acid were found in detectable concentrations in one variety of A. muscaria, in all specimens of A. pantherina and in trace levels after additional purification of the extracts in A. gemmata and in the remaining specimens of A. muscaria. Aminohexadienoic acid and chlorocrotylglycine were detected only in crude extracts of A. smithiana. MTC could not be detected in crude extracts of A. muscaria. Crystalline ibotenic acid (820 mg) was isolated from 17 kg of a specimen of A. pantherina collected in western Washington State.

---

So deadly, maybe if you ate a kilo of them, otherwise I'm guessing not, though you'd likely end up in hospital unless you realised what you were doing and were prepared for the vomiting and hallucinating.

[FungiJohn]

It is certainly lethaly poisonous to dogs and can cause death within 1 hour!

John

[wildherbalian85]

Originally Posted by thelawnet

Well Amanita Muscaria has apparently caused at least one death, and Pantherina is basically a stronger version of Muscaria, so I guess there's your answer.

Tripping on Muscaria is not a good idea, and I guess Pantherina even less so.

See http://www.namyco.org/images/publica...ShawBeug_2.pdf

"I have also always been curious about the fact that the poisonings that we see from Amanita pantherina in the Pacific Northwest sometimes seem more
severe than poisonings by Amanita muscaria. Nearly 30 years ago, on my first Sabbatical, I was working with Dr. Scott Chilton on extracting a mystery
toxin from Amanita pantherina that we do not see in Amanita muscaria. While we failed in our attempts to identify this other toxin, we did observe that
the dark-capped collections of Amanita pantherina had a lot more muscimol and ibotenic acid than the light-capped collections of Amanita pantherina."

It's quite possible that the strains in this country are more dangerous, or less, than the ones in the US of course.

My searches revealed quite a few people have taken Pantherina as a hallucinogen. You're basically taking an overdose of somewhat toxic hallucinogens, rather than eating something that's going to kill your liver/whatever.

The problem is there other varieties of Pantherina in the USA and what is the chemical make up of these other varieties??

Amanita Muscaria from siberia has a different chemical make up to those from parts of europe

[thelawnet]

Good info here:

Aminita muscaria, Amanita pantherina and others (Group PIM G026)

Symptoms appear 30 to 90 minutes after ingestion and
last usually for 6 hours but may persist for 12 to 24 hours.
The primary effects are central nervous system depression and
stimulation, which may alternate. Symptoms usually begin
with drowsiness followed by a state of confusion, with
ataxia, dizziness, euphoria resembling alcohol intoxication
and may proceed to increased activity, illusions, or even
manic excitement.
These periods of excitement may alternate with periods of
somnolence, deep sleep or stupor. The illusions are
primarily a misinterpretation of sensory stimuli. The
prognosis is usually good with symptomatic treatment. Death
from these mushrooms is extremely rare.

Treatment includes prevention of absorption of the
toxins and treatment of the signs and symptoms of
intoxication as they occur. Atropine is not recommended.
Induction of emesis is NOT recommended because of the
potential central nervous system depression and seizures.
There is no specific antidote for Amantia muscaria and
Amanita pantherina poisoning.

The main toxins are: ibotenic acid, muscimol and
muscazone. These three toxins are found in certain species of
mushrooms throughout the world. They are related and are all
isoxazole derivatives.

Interestingly:

Whilst ibotenic acid and muscimol are rapidly released from
the mushrooms by cooking and boiling, these processes do not
eliminate all toxic substances.

Also:

Toxic effects appear 30 to 90 minutes after ingestion
and last usually for 6 hours but may persist for 12 to 24
hours. Hangover is often observed the following day. The
prognosis is usually good with symptomatic treatment. Death
from these mushrooms is extremely rare (Chilton, 1978).
Although they sometimes produce dramatic intoxications with
extensive psychological and neurological effects these
mushrooms have a totally unwarranted reputation for being
"deadly poisonous".

[NickCantle]

I think I made that A-Z entry

[mollisia]

Hello,

in this thread different things are mixed.

First the question, if our european Amanita pantherina is poisonous. The answer is a clear and unmistakable "yes". In Eastern Germany (the former GDR), statistics of mushroom poisonings have been published for many years. The poisonings with A. pantherina are a multiple more than all other mushroom poisonings together. Deaths are not recorder, as far as I remember.

Another thing is A. pantherina in North America. Here we have a whole group of pantheroid species, probably a dozen or more. Several of them are still undescribed, and therefor you cannot compare the american pantheirna to european.

best regards,
Andreas

[NickCantle]

I think the unclarity lies within the effect of the poison and whether it be hallucinogenic, harmful or imminently lethal.