Two fungi for id please

[pressld2]

Here's a couple seen at the Thursley Common WAB meet this weekend.

I think this first one is is a bolete of some kind...



I'm tending towards Leccinum scabrum as there is lot's of birch at Thursley and it's also pretty damp.

I think this one is a dapperling...



Possibly Lepiota clypeolaria?

As always, all help greatly appreciated!

Horizontal Dave.

[mollisia]

Hello,

seeing the bolet in your first picture, I could have told you that you have been in an area where birches are and where it is quite wet ground. You have found Leccinum nucatum, a species which differs from the usual Birch Bolet (L. scabrum) by whitish stipe squamules which are quite big, by the very light coloured cap and by the stipe base often having blueish dots in- or outside.

The other fungus should have been grown in a dryer place then the first one. It has brownish gills and it is no Lepiota but an Inocybe: Inocybe lacera.
May be some think that I lean a bit too far out of the window with that diagnose from just this one foto, but I'm pretty sure. An Inocybe it is in all cases.

best regards,
Andreas

[flaxton]

Originally Posted by mollisia

Hello,

seeing the bolet in your first picture, I could have told you that you have been in an area where birches are and where it is quite wet ground. You have found Leccinum nucatum, a species which differs from the usual Birch Bolet (L. scabrum) by whitish stipe squamules which are quite big, by the very light coloured cap and by the stipe base often having blueish dots in- or outside.



best regards,
Andreas

Does that mean that you don't accept the quote in the Bakker and Noordeloos
work on Leccinum
No molecular evidence to support the existence of L. nucatum as a seperate species thus making this L. holopus

Mal

[pressld2]

Thanks for the help!

I've been googling for the bolete and not getting a consistent picture. Some sites list nucatum as a synonym for holopus, some site list holopus as a synonym for nucatum and some still show them as seperate species. There doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus out there yet. I'll bung both names down for this image for now.

Thanks also for the ID on the Inocybe.

Dave P.

[ManwithNoname]

Originally Posted by pressld2

Thanks for the help!

I've been googling for the bolete and not getting a consistent picture. Some sites list nucatum as a synonym for holopus, some site list holopus as a synonym for nucatum and some still show them as seperate species. There doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus out there yet. I'll bung both names down for this image for now.

Thanks also for the ID on the Inocybe.

Dave P.

For the time being, if you follow the Basidiomycota Checklist, this should be named Leccinum holopus.

[mollisia]

Hello,

the problem with L. holopus and L. nucatum is, whether the white Leccinum from peat bogs has always to be white or how brownish it may become to be still holopus, and on the other hand whether all white Leccinum in peat bogs are just one species or whether there are albinotic forms of other species too.
I have been shown L. holopus in Scandinavia by swedish and finnish mycologists and had always the feeling that it is something different from what here is called nucatum. But I have also found a few times in upper Black Forest (1100 m NN) pure white "typical holopus" growing within a collection where also "typical nucatum" with cream coloured caps grew. May be two species with similar ecological, because holopus has fine stipe squamules whereas nucatum has quite strong squamules. As also L. variicolor and L. cyaneobasileucum were growing in diect vicinity, the holopus and nucatum need not necessarily be the same species. Noordeloos & Den Bakker are the opinion, that those two are not separable from molecular data and that they have found intermediates. But I think, that albinotic nucatum and real holopus have still been mixed up and that you can separate the two by the different stipe squamukes and the different flesh colouration (unchangeable or becoming olivaceous in holopus, weakly to moderately reddening in nucatum). It is not logical in my eyes when the two authors on one hand don't accept these two taxa as different, but on the other hand var. holopus and var. americanus are accepted as two different taxa "though no molecular differences could be found that were congruent with these varieties [...]. The absence of (morphological) intermediates seems to justify recognition of var. americanum as an infraspecific taxon". Differences are said to be the blackish stipe squamules and the pinkish colouration of the flesh. The latter is a character the nucatum also shows regularily, so only blackish stipe squamules can be used to separate the two varieties.
Another synonymation that I think debatable is the one of L. rotundifoliae with L. pulchrum, and I don't agree fully to the argumentation they present. And lastely the exclusion of L. molle as nomen dubium don't semm justified to me. By the way, I colected this species in Sweden together with a british mycologist with a special interest for boletes, called Andy Taylor.

best regards,
Andreas

[Chris Yeates]

in light of the above

boy do I love microfungi

C

[flaxton]

Andreas
I have often had the same concerns over what criteria some mycologist seem to use to justify a new species or a new var or to re combine species as you express. Unfortunately as an enthusiastic armature I just have to take what the latest paper says and follow that until it changes again.

Mal
Ps I forayed in Sardinia with Andy Taylor and Alan Hills its amazing the number of Boletes that turn up when experts like that are along even if on occasions they had disagreements over identifications

[mollisia]

Originally Posted by flaxton

Andreas
I have often had the same concerns over what criteria some mycologist seem to use to justify a new species or a new var or to re combine species as you express. Unfortunately as an enthusiastic armature I just have to take what the latest paper says and follow that until it changes again.

Mal
Ps I forayed in Sardinia with Andy Taylor and Alan Hills its amazing the number of Boletes that turn up when experts like that are along even if on occasions they had disagreements over identifications

Hello Mal,

i don't think that I#m something else then an "enthusiastic amateur" and if you are foraging with such expert in a far away site like Sardinia, you are also more then the "average enthusiastic amateur". And therefore you surely know, that mycology - as all biological scients - is a science which can only argue, but can never proof. There is no absolute rhight or wrong. And, as a wise man once said, our knowledge of today are the mistajes of tomorrow ....
So in many cases I also have no other choice as to follow one concept, althought here are comepting coencepts exist. But with the time - and I'm sure you are on this stage already - one becomes a fealing for what is suitable to oneselves expercience and what is not suitable.

And of course we knoe, that semething published don't necessariliy means that it is the bible ..... Although we can assume, that people publishing something ussually do their best. Neverthelles it is allowed not to follow all, but to habe own expercience.

best regards,
Andreas

best regards,
Andreas