Coprinopsis - but which one?

[SheffieldLass]

I found this a few days ago in acid unimproved mossy grassland on shales/sandstones close to field edge trees (Crataegus), solitary. Unfortunately I was too busy trying to get Conflicker off my computer to get round to it before it had started to disintegrate, but have managed to get some microscopic details from the blackish mush it had turned into ...

Size of cap approx 20mm tall.
Smell of mown grass.
Basidia 4 spored
Veil cells globose - I assumed they were smooth, but are these actually warty?
The spores are very distinctive with a very noticeable smooth episporium. I measured the spores, but included the episporium in the measurement, which judging by the pictures in FAN suggest that I should have only measured the dark bit. The all inclusive size is typically 11.6-12.8 x 7-8.1um.
I also found one hypha with clamps.
And found what I presume are pleurocystidia and/or cheilocystidia, but as gill the structure had disintegrated could not say where they were from.
This looks to me as if it is in the Narcotici subsection because of the spores, maybe C semitalis?

Comments /other suggestions please ...





spores

cystidia

clamps

veil

Thanks

Melanie

[CapAndBracket]

My thoughts are Coprinopsis lagopus. (the spores are inside the book dimensions).

Cheers J.P.

[FungiJohn]

I would suggest Coprinopsis nivea given the 'snow fall' deposited!

John

[Chris Yeates]

hi Melanie

it can't possibly be Coprinopsis lagopus or C. nivea because the spores clearly have a perispore as you mention (although strictly speaking an 'episporium' is something different)

as far as I can see those veil cells are of the 'permanently warty' type

although it's a long time since I last collected semitalis, I think this is what you have, based on the evidence presented here; I remember having a correspondence with Roy Watling at RBG Edinburgh, because in one collection many of the spores had been formed with up to four within a single perispore (presumably those from a single basidium), and he mentioned that this was not that unusual within the narcoticus group

cheers

Chris

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by Chris Yeates

hi Melanie

it can't possibly be Coprinopsis lagopus or C. nivea because the spores clearly have a perispore as you mention (although strictly speaking an 'episporium' is something different)

as far as I can see those veil cells are of the 'permanently warty' type

although it's a long time since I last collected semitalis, I think this is what you have, based on the evidence presented here; I remember having a correspondence with Roy Watling at RBG Edinburgh, because in one collection many of the spores had been formed with up to four within a single perispore (presumably those from a single basidium), and he mentioned that this was not that unusual within the narcoticus group

cheers

Chris

Thanks Chris. I wanted to check it as I'm not familiar with Coprinus, at least that subsection of it, first time I've seen that type of spore appearance, and the books say C semitalis is rare, though the British checklist says here it is merely rarely recorded. Probably because it disappears before your eyes.

I did notice that there were a few instances of 2 sharing a perispore. I'll have to look up exactly what these terms mean, because I notice that FAN call it a myxosporium, Funga Nordica calls it a perispore, and Kees Uljé Coprinus site calls it an epispore ...

I probably should have looked at the veil in Congo red or other stain ... I guess it might have made the warts a bit more obvious that they were warts, rather than my first assumption that they were merely fine air bubbles on the surface.

Cheers
Melanie

[Chris Yeates]

Originally Posted by SheffieldLass

. . .
I did notice that there were a few instances of 2 sharing a perispore. I'll have to look up exactly what these terms mean, because I notice that FAN call it a myxosporium, Funga Nordica calls it a perispore, and Kees Uljé Coprinus site calls it an epispore ... Cheers
Melanie

I was following the description in the Dictionary of the Fungi under "Spore Wall":

Spore wall. Conventional or electron microscopy
shows the spore wall to be layered. The terminology
of these layers by different authors is somewhat con-
fused (see the comparison by Payak, 1964: 33). Five
layers (the spore wall proper; eusporium) which
have been distinguished are, from within outwards:
(1) endosporium (endospore, corium), which is usu-
ally thin and is the last to develop during sporogene-
sis; (2) episporium, the thick, fundamental layer
which determines the shape of the spore; (3) exospo-
rium (exospore, epitunica, trachytectum, tunica), a
layer derived from (2) but chemically distinct and
frequently responsible for the ornamentation; (4) per-
isporium (= mucostratum, myxosporium), a layer,
frequently fugacious, enveloping the whole spore and
limited by (5), the hardly visible ectosporium
(sporothecium). On this disappearance of (4) and (5)
(3) is the outer spore layer. (1)-(3) are thus the spore
wall proper; (4) and (5) of extrasporal origin.

a bit technical but I think I can just about follow it

best

Chris

[mollisia]

Hello Melanie,

this is an interesting finding of an intersting group of Coprinus. You are for sure in section Narcotici. From this section I have seen cinereofloccosus, laanii, martinii, narcoticus and saccharomyces. The species I have not seen are - besides C. trisporus - all dung inhabiting species.
I'm not sure whether the concept of ULJÉ really comprises all what one can find in nature, but may be there are still one or two undescribed species in this group.
Your collection may be one of it, because I'm not convinced of C. semitalis. If you take the key of ULJÉ, you finally end with this species. But C. semitalis (as I understand the species) should have the most prominent myxosporum of all in the group. As far as I can see on you pictures, the myxosporium there is not too broad, compared with what I have determined C. semitalis:


So may be worth checking if all other characters fit perfect, or if may be there are still other things that contradict a determination as C. semitalis.

best regards,
Andreas

[CapAndBracket]

Excellent thread melanie (plus advice from chris and Andreas) i certainly
havn't seen spores like those but at least now i know what to look for.

Cheers J.P.

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by mollisia

Hello Melanie,

this is an interesting finding of an intersting group of Coprinus. You are for sure in section Narcotici. From this section I have seen cinereofloccosus, laanii, martinii, narcoticus and saccharomyces. The species I have not seen are - besides C. trisporus - all dung inhabiting species.
I'm not sure whether the concept of ULJÉ really comprises all what one can find in nature, but may be there are still one or two undescribed species in this group.
Your collection may be one of it, because I'm not convinced of C. semitalis. If you take the key of ULJÉ, you finally end with this species. But C. semitalis (as I understand the species) should have the most prominent myxosporum of all in the group. As far as I can see on you pictures, the myxosporium there is not too broad, compared with what I have determined C. semitalis:


So may be worth checking if all other characters fit perfect, or if may be there are still other things that contradict a determination as C. semitalis.

best regards,
Andreas

Hi Andreas

I'm hoping that with the rain we're finally getting a few more might appear ...

I see what you mean about the myxosporium. On mine the spores generally haven't 'popped' the myxopsorium in the way that yours have, and as FAN draws them. The widest on mine was 1.6um, and that was on one that had partially 'popped', so near but not quite the 2um that FAN mentions. So it could be that it looks narrower because it is being stretched by the spores still. And whether this particular character is due to it actually not being C semitalis or whether due to weather/growing conditions or merely an idiosyncrasy of this one I'll probably only know if a few more appear.

One difference I did notice was the smell, which was 'grass' like, meaning Anthoxanthum odoratum rather than narcotic 'grass' ...

It was in a rather decomposed state when I looked at it with the microscope, so I was very lucky to see the features that I was able to record. However the clamps were quite distinct on the one bit of hypha that I was able to see .. so this might be another feature that doesn't quite fit.

So hopefully a few more will appear over time; I'll be looking out for them now. I dried and saved the remnants, which won't give much more than the spores and some veil cells, but it may be useful to compare if others do show.

Cheers
Melanie

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by CapAndBracket

Excellent thread melanie (plus advice from chris and Andreas) i certainly
havn't seen spores like those but at least now i know what to look for.

Cheers J.P.

I too first thought C lagopus on this one, then the group that includes C nivea. But those spores were niggling me ... Once you know what that external layer is, you know to look for it!

And thanks to Chris for putting those definitions on. It is a much clearer explanation than the glossaries I looked at.

Melanie