Public golf course public land??

[J]

Hi there all, does anybody know about the legalities of wandering land or where I could find out? My local public golf course manager was very unhelpfull and blunt when I asked his permission to walk the edges of the course. Its a shame as I play golf there on occassion and wouldnt be causing a problem for anyone. So its left me feeling frustrated at bothering to politely ask in the 1st place as no one would ever have Known. Im guessing however hes well within his rights to say no, even though it is a 'public golf course'?

Thanks all, sorry if this threads not about a find, it seemed relevant though.

[Lance Morgan]

Can't see a problem if it is a public golf course. Take a club and ball with you when you go for a walk
So long as you are not causing any damages the police cannot touch you - anyway they have better things to do or should have.

[ron1863]

I wouldn't have bothered even asking, especially as you are just walking on the borders of the course. It may have been an issue if you were wandering across the fairways or greens though. My local course is a private one but the locals wander around it and nobody bothers.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by J

Hi there all, does anybody know about the legalities of wandering land or where I could find out? My local public golf course manager was very unhelpfull and blunt when I asked his permission to walk the edges of the course. Its a shame as I play golf there on occassion and wouldnt be causing a problem for anyone. So its left me feeling frustrated at bothering to politely ask in the 1st place as no one would ever have Known. Im guessing however hes well within his rights to say no, even though it is a 'public golf course'?

Thanks all, sorry if this threads not about a find, it seemed relevant though.

legally speaking in england and wales you dont have "wandering" rights over land just because it is in public ownership - outside of the "right to roam" areas indicated on ordanance survey maps (which are very unlikely to include a golf course) your only rights of access are on public rights of way and highways.

with other areas of public land where people frequently wander such as parks access is normally by permision of the land owner (usually either the local authority or the crown) but this is permisive access not a right

therefore the head greenkeeper /site manager is within his rights to deny you access to the course as a whole but he can't stop you from using any public right of way which crosses it.

Also the suggestion about taking a club with you doesnt fly as presumably even on a public course you have to pay green fees to play.

Although as a practical matter it is likely that you could wander the edges and no one would care i would suspect that the site manager is worried about liability if you get hit by a stray drive - if he gives you permission to use the site for purposes other than golf then the club would be liable - but possibly not covered by their liability insurance. As he has denied you access if you chose to ignore him if you are injured he can say that he took reasonable steps to stop the incident from occuring.

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by eeyore

legally speaking in england and wales you dont have "wandering" rights over land just because it is in public ownership - outside of the "right to roam" areas indicated on ordanance survey maps (which are very unlikely to include a golf course) your only rights of access are on public rights of way and highways.

with other areas of public land where people frequently wander such as parks access is normally by permision of the land owner (usually either the local authority or the crown) but this is permisive access not a right

therefore the head greenkeeper /site manager is within his rights to deny you access to the course as a whole but he can't stop you from using any public right of way which crosses it.

Also the suggestion about taking a club with you doesnt fly as presumably even on a public course you have to pay green fees to play.

Although as a practical matter it is likely that you could wander the edges and no one would care i would suspect that the site manager is worried about liability if you get hit by a stray drive - if he gives you permission to use the site for purposes other than golf then the club would be liable - but possibly not covered by their liability insurance. As he has denied you access if you chose to ignore him if you are injured he can say that he took reasonable steps to stop the incident from occuring.

I'll echo what Eeyore has said as theres a golf course right near me and the grounds to this and local fields are separated by a brook. This brook has a public footpath next to it and theres a poorly made fence on the golf side of the brook. It looks in a few places like the fence has been penetrated and some people have got in but I have never tried.



Good luck I hope you manage to get access. I get really worried sometimes because I usually have my bike when I go out geocaching and this takes me onto public footpaths a lot, so I usually print out a map of where the paths are before I go out, so that if a farmer confronts me - I can just show him the map (despite having a bike with me)

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

I get really worried sometimes because I usually have my bike when I go out geocaching and this takes me onto public footpaths a lot, so I usually print out a map of where the paths are before I go out, so that if a farmer confronts me - I can just show him the map (despite having a bike with me)

two words of caution on that KT

one - a public footpath doesnt give you the right to ride a bike - they are for foot passage only (including wheelchairs and class one and two mobility scooters which are considered to be "walking" in the eyes of the law). If a landowner wanted to get really pernickety they dont actually give you the right to wheel a bike along them either. ( public bridleways, restricted byways and byways on the other hand are open to cycle users)

and two , the existence of a public right of way only gives you the right to "freely pass and repass" along its length by the permitted means - it does not automatically confer the right to undertake any other activity be that geocaching , photography, or whatever - in fact if a landowner wanted to be picky even standing and enjoying the view doesnt class as passing and freely repassing.

the good news however is that most landowners arent that bolshy , and also even for those that are trespass is a civil offence not a criminal one so any threat to call the police is so much hot air

however agravated trespass (basically trespass while commiting another offence such as criminal damage, theft etc) is a criminal offence and can be a police matter - and what is relevant to people engaged in geocaching, fungal foraying etc is that any crop damage caused outside the path corridor could be considered to be an act of vandalism , and removing anything from the site could be classed as theft, and leaving anything on the site without permision could be classed as littering/dumping - all of which could fall into the agravated bracket.

Also with regard to geocaching a landowner has a perfect right to remove anything (at least low value items or those percieved to be dumped) left intentionally on his land without his permision, which doesnt bode well for the longlevity of a cache if you upset the landowner.

most landowners are reasonable folk but the bottom line is its not a good idea to annoy them , and if you are confronted about what you are doing a polite explanation and withdrawal is better than standing on your percieved rights.

( NB : I work in rights of way so i do know what i'm talking about but i'm not a lawyer or legal expert so dont base any legal stand in either direction on the above without seeking propper legal advice first)

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by eeyore

two words of caution on that KT

one - a public footpath doesnt give you the right to ride a bike - they are for foot passage only (including wheelchairs and class one and two mobility scooters which are considered to be "walking" in the eyes of the law). If a landowner wanted to get really pernickety they dont actually give you the right to wheel a bike along them either. ( public bridleways, restricted byways and byways on the other hand are open to cycle users)

and two , the existence of a public right of way only gives you the right to "freely pass and repass" along its length by the permitted means - it does not automatically confer the right to undertake any other activity be that geocaching , photography, or whatever - in fact if a landowner wanted to be picky even standing and enjoying the view doesnt class as passing and freely repassing.

the good news however is that most landowners arent that bolshy , and also even for those that are trespass is a civil offence not a criminal one so any threat to call the police is so much hot air

however agravated trespass (basically trespass while commiting another offence such as criminal damage, theft etc) is a criminal offence and can be a police matter - and what is relevant to people engaged in geocaching, fungal foraying etc is that any crop damage caused outside the path corridor could be considered to be an act of vandalism , and removing anything from the site could be classed as theft, and leaving anything on the site without permision could be classed as littering/dumping - all of which could fall into the agravated bracket.

Also with regard to geocaching a landowner has a perfect right to remove anything (at least low value items or those percieved to be dumped) left intentionally on his land without his permision, which doesnt bode well for the longlevity of a cache if you upset the landowner.

most landowners are reasonable folk but the bottom line is its not a good idea to annoy them , and if you are confronted about what you are doing a polite explanation and withdrawal is better than standing on your percieved rights.

( NB : I work in rights of way so i do know what i'm talking about but i'm not a lawyer or legal expert so dont base any legal stand in either direction on the above without seeking propper legal advice first)

Thanks for the info. The geocaches if on a public footpath in farmland for example have to have permission first anyway. As with the bike its the only thing possible. I can't exactly lock it up because I would eventually double back on myself and double the mileage in my days caching. I only have limited time when I go out and I usually stick to a specific route. If a cache is one on its own and not in a line with others, I usually lock it up to a style and leave it but if theres a trail, the bike goes with me

[NickCantle]

If I'm walking, I'll go anywhere unless I have to cross a fence or a gate. I mean no harm, and if someone catches me on private land that's not signposted or fenced, let them try and prosecute me. It won't stop me roaming my countryside, and most reasonable people around here don't mind. Plead ignorance.

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

If I'm walking, I'll go anywhere unless I have to cross a fence or a gate. I mean no harm, and if someone catches me on private land that's not signposted or fenced, let them try and prosecute me. It won't stop me roaming my countryside, and most reasonable people around here don't mind. Plead ignorance.

Unfortunately Nick, ignorance of the law is no defence.

However quite often people are unsure of (a) law or even that a law exists. It is this absence of knowledge that allows the judgement of 'argument' should it ever reach court.

John

[NickCantle]

Originally Posted by FungiJohn

Unfortunately Nick, ignorance of the law is no defence.

However quite often people are unsure of (a) law or even that a law exists. It is this absence of knowledge that allows the judgement of 'argument' should it ever reach court.

John

As I said mate, let them try and prosecute me. To 99% of land owners, unless a crime is being performed in addition to the trespass, it's too much hassle to drag through a court. I'll continue to roam where I like, so long as I'm not causing damage to anything or any inconvenience to anyone, which I wouldn't do anyway

When I speak to people, they know I mean no harm