ID confirmation, please...

[solus]

ID confirmation or otherwise, that is!
All found yesterday in Standish Woods, Gloucestershire, a more or less typical Cotswold Beechwood with some Ash, Birch and Larch mixed in.

I think this first one is Velvet Shank - Flammulina velutipes, albeit a rather dry specimen, growing on a very rotten stump, probably of Ash.




This was on a beech log and I think it's Beech Blackspot - Diatrype disciformis?




This was on a fallen branch and I decided (with the aid of Jordan) that it might be Beech Tarspot - Biscogniauxia nummularia?



I'm probably way out but at least I tried!
Thanks in anticipation for your help.

[Lancashire Lad]

Well, for what it's worth, I would be as "way out" as yourself, because having just looked in my books, and done a couple of image searches on the net, I think you are correct with all three ID's.

Regards
Mike.

[Chris Yeates]

hi

yes to 1
2 looks like a Hypoxylon species on birch
3 looks rather like Diatrype stigma on beech

cheers

Chris

[KeenTeen17]

1) thats right
2) the bark is very white so its a betula sp. Not sure which Hypoxylon grows on birch though. I think its H. multiforme
3) can't help - beyond me

[Lancashire Lad]

Hi Chris,

Originally Posted by Chris Yeates

2 looks like a Hypoxylon species on birch

Is there something about the photo that definitely says not Diatrype disciformis?
I understand that D.disciformis has the synonym of Hypoxylon disciforme, and that whilst it mainly appears on Fagus, it is not all that infrequent on other deciduous trees, including Betula.

Originally Posted by Chris Yeates

3 looks rather like Diatrype stigma on beech cheers Chris

Again, for the benefit of us novices, is there something about the photo that says not Biscogniauxia nummularia? - I've browsed numerous images and can't readily see any visible (macroscopic) differences between B.nummularia, and D.stigma. (I understand that Biscogniauxia is specific to Fagus only).

I'd be very grateful for your thoughts.
Regards
Mike.

[solus]

Chris - I'm pretty sure No. 2 was Beech - as in 99% sure. Well, I was...
I notice (Index Fungorum) that Hypoxylon disciformis is a synonym for Diatrype disciformis?


I can't find Diatrype stigma in Jordan or on the Philips website. 'Googling' brings up a mix of pictures, some of which seem to suggest that D. stigma and D. disciformis are one and the same, but clearly this is not so from the Index Fungorum. I came up with Biscogniauxia nummularia by looking through Jordan - who incidentally gives an alternative name as Hypoxylon nummularium. I'm confused. (Easily done!)

[solus]

KT and Mike posted during the (considerable!) time I was composing my response above.

Sorry, but I still see no. 2 as being on the smooth grey bark typical of young-ish Beech: there is a lot in those woods that has been cut/thinned out while quite slender and all the debris is left lying on the ground to rot down.

[Chris Yeates]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

Hi Chris,


Is there something about the photo that definitely says not Diatrype disciformis?
I understand that D.disciformis has the synonym of Hypoxylon disciforme, and that whilst it mainly appears on Fagus, it is not all that infrequent on other deciduous trees, including Betula.


Again, for the benefit of us novices, is there something about the photo that says not Biscogniauxia nummularia? - I've browsed numerous images and can't readily see any visible (macroscopic) differences between B.nummularia, and D.stigma. (I understand that Biscogniauxia is specific to Fagus only).

I'd be very grateful for your thoughts.
Regards
Mike.

hi Mike

the name Hypoxylon disciforme is one of a number of synonyms for the Diatrype it dates to 1854 when an understanding of the relationships of these fungi to one another was far from perfect (and we're not there yet!); you might get large numbers of actually unrelated fungi lumped into a genus - go back early enough and virtually all these things would be called 'Sphaeria' something (and all gilled fungi were called 'Agaricus' something)

Diatrype disciformis forms roughly regularly sized circular fruit-bodies on beech, Fagus; these are erumpent- they burst through the bark leaving raised bits of bark around them - these black bodies are technically known as stromata (plural of stroma) and within each can be seen the openings of a number of individual fruit-bodies; a key feature is that the surface of each stroma is flat - think black crumpets and you are not far wrong; go into any mature beech woodland, look at fallen branches and thick twigs and you will find Diatrype disciformis almost immediately . . . trust me

This picture - which I still say is on birch - shows irregular fruit-bodies which are not flat topped and do not have the raised bark around them; I suspect that KT is correct and that this is Hypoxylon multiforme, but I always like to check these things at home

fungi that look like 3 are fairly numerous and one has to be careful - forget Jordan and Phillips, you need specialist literature and a microscope I fear; such fungi are found in Hypoxylon (and its segregates), Eutypa, Diatrype and other genera; a glimpse at the spores would tell you immediately which genus your fungus was in (for a start Hypoxylon has dark spores, Diatrype doesn't - though these fungi don't lend themselves to spore prints)

finally be very wary of what's on the net: looking at what you might have looked at I came across this page:

Mycophiles - Galerie photos de champignons 74

let's look at the first four images - though you can't be sure from the image I suspect that the Coprinus miser is probably C. cordisporus; Diatrype disciformis is not that, but probably what we have here in number 2 i.e. (prob.) Hypoxylon multiforme on birch; Diatrype stigma is certainly not that species - it could be Melanomma pulvis-pyrius . . . . at the bottom left I suspect that the Lasiosphaeria spermoides is a Rosellinia species

they have got Leptosphaeria acuta on nettle right - but if you can't get that right you might as well give up mycology

see what I mean? venturing into the 'pyrenomycetes' is a big jump

cheers

Chris

EDIT - for heavens sake the first image you come across if you google Diatrype disciformis is wrong!!!!:

http://www.english-country-garden.co...ark-spot-1.jpg - rubbish!!

this page is 100% OK:

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/im...pe+disciformis

C

[Lancashire Lad]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed and instructive reply.
Much appreciated. (Although I will now have to spend some time to try to constructively take in the implications of what you have said. ).

Regards
Mike.

EDIT - Well, at least I've now learned what "Erumpent" means. - (and I've just added the term to WAB's fungi glossary).

[solus]

*Sob*


Thanks for all that Chris. Oddly enough, that wasn't one of the interweb sites I found this time! But as you say, there are plenty of others out there with dodgy IDs.