Black balls on felled sycamore

SheffieldLass · #1 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 10:24 AM

I'm bringing this one up again as there were no thoughts on it first time round.

These black balls were found with Nectria (which was in both the anamorph and teleomorph stage), and almost appeared as if they were discoloured ones at a later stage, but they had black spherical spores, clearly not the same fungus. Size approx 1mm, and turn grey when dry. On felled sycamore trunk. Also with Cylindrobasidium laeve.

Spores are 11.9-13.4 x 11.5-12.7um.

Any ideas?

Melanie

FungiJohn · #2 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheffieldLass

I'm bringing this one up again as there were no thoughts on it first time round.

These black balls were found with Nectria (which was in both the anamorph and teleomorph stage), and almost appeared as if they were discoloured ones at a later stage, but they had black spherical spores, clearly not the same fungus. Size approx 1mm, and turn grey when dry. On felled sycamore trunk. Also with Cylindrobasidium laeve.

Spores are 11.9-13.4 x 11.5-12.7um.

Any ideas?

Melanie

Hi Melanie

Could they possibly be Lasiosphaeria spermoides?

I've also found these with Scutellinia

John

mollisia · #3 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 01:26 PM

Hi Melanie,

I was also thinking og Lasiosphaeria spermoides.
The spores you show do not belong to the black balls, but to a myxomycete. Very probably to the Lycogala epidendron we see on the 2nd foto.

best regards,
Andreas

SheffieldLass · #4 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mollisia

Hi Melanie,

I was also thinking og Lasiosphaeria spermoides.
The spores you show do not belong to the black balls, but to a myxomycete. Very probably to the Lycogala epidendron we see on the 2nd foto.

best regards,
Andreas

Thanks Andreas ... though you've now got me more confused!... The dark spherical spores shown do belong to the black balls .... black balls within black balls, when you squash one on a slide the spores shoot out, so definitely from inside them .... but looking at some pictures of Lycogala epidendron they do appear to darken from orange to reddish to blackish. And there do appear to be some intermediates between red and black in the second photo. So perhaps the black ones are L epidendron?

Where you refer to Lycogala epidendron in the 2nd photo, are you meaning here the orange blobs? They seem to be a mass of cylindrical conidia, and the red ones have ascospores, which seem to fit the two stages of Nectria ..... At least I think so. There were about 4 sections of log all covered with these orange, red and black blobs. I certainly took all three from that bit shown, and the black ones were definitely from there, but also took some of the red and orange from a bit further along the log too, so they could have got mixed up by mistake. They all looked to be the same, but it could be that there is a mixture of Nectria and Lycogala on the same log, maybe. Of the ones I took home that I've still got (and I've just rechecked them again today), none of the red or orange blobs have spherical spores. Looks as if I'll have to go back and check them again. If the snow hasn't destroyed them, that is.

Cheers
Melanie

Chris Yeates · #5 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FungiJohn

Hi Melanie

Could they possibly be Lasiosphaeria spermoides?

I've also found these with Scutellinia

John

hi John et al.

I don't think that these are the same thing - clearly without seeing spores these "pyreno's" can be difficult, but while the lower ones could well be Lasiosphaeria I think the upper picture shows effete perithecia of Rosellinia aquila (smoother, more obviously papillate)

with regard to Melanie's picture, Andreas is surely right that those are myxo spores, ; could not the mystery fungus be a sodden colony of a myxomycete with some going mouldy (as myxo's often do) at bottom right? I'm sure that Melanie has got the right spores from the main fungus

just some thoughts

Chris

mollisia · #6 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 08:03 PM

Hallo Melanie,

with Lycogala epidendron I meant the salmon coloured blobs on the 2nd foto. But when looking again I have to admit, that they will be the anamorph of this Nectria on the foto. So not Lycogala epidendron but a Tubercularia.

Nevertheless the brown and round spores which seem to be finely warted are spores of a myxomycete, no doubt.

best regards,
Andreas

FungiJohn · #7 (**permalink**) 11-02-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Yeates

hi John et al.

I don't think that these are the same thing - clearly without seeing spores these "pyreno's" can be difficult, but while the lower ones could well be Lasiosphaeria I think the upper picture shows effete perithecia of Rosellinia aquila (smoother, more obviously papillate)

with regard to Melanie's picture, Andreas is surely right that those are myxo spores, ; could not the mystery fungus be a sodden colony of a myxomycete with some going mouldy (as myxo's often do) at bottom right? I'm sure that Melanie has got the right spores from the main fungus

just some thoughts

Chris

Hi Chris

The first species could well be Rosellinia aquila, given your comments and general size of the fruit bodies. If I still have it in my collection I'll check.

The second species is of Lasiosphaeria spermoides and was verified along with the Scutellinia scutellata.

A bonus really I suppose if Rosellinia aquila

... provided I kept the sample that is

John

Edit:

Yes, the first species was verified as Lasiosphaeria spermoides by my good friend and Mycologist, Ken Rowland - 3rd May 2006.

SheffieldLass · #8 (**permalink**) 12-02-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mollisia

Nevertheless the brown and round spores which seem to be finely warted are spores of a myxomycete, no doubt.

best regards,
Andreas

Hi Andreas and Chris

Both you and Chris recognise these immediately as spores of a myxomycete, and as I know next to nothing about myxomycetes I was wondering what are the characteristics that distinguish them from other spores?

thanks
Melanie

mollisia · #9 (**permalink**) 12-02-2009, 06:30 PM

Hi,

brwon, +/- round, finely warted and occuring always in huge quantities without being accompagnied by hymenial structures - that are myxomycete spores. If you look closer you will never find an apiculus, so they can not be basidiomycete spores. And within the ascomycetes there are no spores which are even somewhat similar.
On the other hand the great mass of myxomycetes has very similar spores and it is only very rarily that you can identify a myxomycete species from the spores alone.

best regards,
Andreas

Chris Yeates · #10 (**permalink**) 12-02-2009, 07:23 PM

hi

while pointing out that some ascospores can be a little like this on a casual viewing (as can the spores of some Gasteromycetes), I think Andreas has summed it up beautifully; the key thing is the absence of a hymenium, basidia, asci etc.

don't forget - myxo's are not fungi . . . not even remotely related to fungi . . .

Chris