lilac mushroom?

[diggleken]

Hello all,
is this Lepista sordida please?
cheers
Ken

[Chris Yeates]

hi Ken

I would tend towards saying 'no', I think this is nuda; Nordeloos in Vol. 3 of Flora Agaricina Neerlandica states that "Lepista nuda and L. sordida are very closely related . . . both taxa are very variable in colour and habit. Microscopically . . . . there is a big overlap. . . . Lepista sordida is considered here as a taxon with predominantly sordid brown colours."

He also stresses the thin-fleshed nature of sordida, and suggests that several varieties of L. sordida published by the highly-regarded mycologist Marcel Bon "are better considered as belonging within the variability of L. nuda". (If the experts cannot produce clear delimitations, where does that leave us on this one).

I think there is just too much pale pinky-violet in your fungus - it's not "sordid brown" - you yourself call it "lilac".

best wishes

Chris

[diggleken]

Hi Chris,
Oh my goodness - so even Bon gets it wrong!
I supect you are right - this is a tough one isnt it - I didnt realise what variation there could be - I dont suppose it matters this was on peaty wet meadow above Ketlewell - but I am going back ther next week (birthday treat) - any pointers, (if they are still there) on how to sort them out in the field? (apart from spore microscopy!)
The colour was throughout, no browning to be seen, including cap and gills, so that supprts your ID too - the cap was also quite smooth - but I cant remember any odour, maybe thats a help next week?:
Cheers again
Ken

[Chris Yeates]

hi

as the book says even the spores overlap; I have never been able to convince myself in all honesty that I have found sordida; they are very close, but there must be sufficient differences to maintain the distinctions. If you go back next week and these things are a bit more washed out and brownish it won't make them anything different, unfortunately.

I can remember the days when mycologists would agonize over the distinctions between Hygrocybe nigrescens and H. conica, and H. virginea and H. nivea: it took David Boertmann and 20 years of study of a wide range of specimens across Europe to say that the first two are the same species and the other two are extremes of a second one - and we all breathed a sigh of relief. That is why I like the microfungi - it's a lot easier to say that a fungus is growing on nettle, its spores are seven to nine-celled, it measures such and such and therefore it must be species A, than it is to decide whether the gills of a Clitocybe are brownish-grey or greyish-brown

but don't be discouraged; and I'll be interested to get any Yorkshire records you care to pass on - thanks in anticipation

best wishes

Chris

[diggleken]

Cheers Chris,
Any format needed? Dates, conditions, substrate etc etc ?
Ken

[PeteS]

Hmmm... this is an interesting thread. I am a big fan of Lepista nuda. I have a spot where they grow in numbers and I have noticed a big range between what I call L. nuda, L. sordida and even L. saeva. It's as if there are various forms between L. nuda, L. sordida and to a lesser extent L. saeva, rather than 3 distinct groups. In my spot for L. nuda each fruiting patch produces mushrooms every season (hopefully) that have their own identifiable characteristics, so much so that if someone else picked them I would be able to tell which ring (or at least narrow it down to two or three) that they came from. These characteristics remain the same year after year. I don't think that this is down to soil type as I have a place where two half rings cross. Where they merge I can tell which ring the fungi belong to - i.e. there is a distinct difference.

Out of interest - what I call L. sordida has gills that are more brittle that L. nuda. If you run your fingers over the gills of L. sordida they tend to fall apart, whereas L. nuda remains and is quite elastic.

[NickCantle]

The colour differences between L. nuda and L. saeva are massive though. I know there's some confusion over the L. nuda/sordida/saeva triangle in the world of mycology. L. nuda are purple or brown (when wet) and have a stipe that often roots above ground in a thick layer of web-like white mycelium. L. saeva are cream capped and in my experience never have purple or lilac on the cap. L sordida are somewhat less substantial that the aforementioned other Lepista species and as you say Pete, have lamellae with a more brittle texture.

In my own experience, I've only ever seen L. sordida the once and it was very different to any other Lepista that I'd found before.

[diggleken]

well,
at Tatton Park today, found a group of Lepista -

This is a newly emerged specimen with gorgeous lilac gills and a strongly brown cap - the older ones were becoming less brown on the cap - creamier on the cap, not lilac as in my previous pic where the whole body was concolourous.
So if the others might have been Nuda, this may well be Sordida ? ? ? ? I have more pics if needed.
The gills of this one are quite robust, the stem was off whiteish but lilac veiled at the base.
Cap slightly inrolled with a white undermargin between the gills and cap.
Any further help?
Ken

[NickCantle]

Far too substantial for L. sordida. I think you have L. nuda.

[diggleken]

I now think this s so, Nick - the images in Rogers and the nature of the gills are clearly more nuda than sordida, whilst the older specimens are more waxy on a slightly upturned cap, which seems right.
These sure are a problem - the colour variation is a bugbear!
Older specimen pic for reference.
Thanks to all
Ken