Info on distinguishing Daldinia sp. sought please

[CloudedYellow]

I found some old Daldinia on a burnt log today. Difficult to know what the log was but could have been Ash ie it may just be Daldinia concentrica. But I know that Daldinia vernicosa is associated with burnt wood (or is it just burnt gorse?)

I would like to find out about the various Daldinia sp. in the UK, in particular differentiating them using microscopic features but I cannot find any information. It may be that what I found today is too far gone but can anyone tell me where I can find such info please?

Thx.

Richard

[fairplay]

Good question, I'd like to know too.

There was an article in Field Mycology some time ago, forget which one, but I don't think microscopic features were shown.

Neil.

[Alantb]

The alleged distinctions between Daldinia concentrica and D. vernicosa are (1) D. concentrica grows mainly on Ash while D. vernicosa tends to be on Gorse [as said above] and (2) the perithecia in D. concentrica are in a single row while those on D. vernicosa are in a double row. I have looked for vernicosa on gorse and found it only once and the specimens were not very good but additionally they had a short 'stipe' attaching them to the tree.
The info about the perithecia came from Nordic Macromycetes Vol 1, (which has its detractors, being rather incomplete) but it also claims that D. conc grows on Betula and Alnus (not Ash!) and D. vern on Populus, 'especially when burnt'.
The article on Daldinia is on page 80 of FM July 2001 and is a short discussion mentioning five European species, (D. loculata, fissa and petrinii in addition to the other two) but gives no very useful hints to ID except substrate.
Best of luck!
Alan

[poschiavanus]

Ellis & Ellis in "Microfungi on Land Plants" give ascospore sizes as follows:

• D. concentrica: Ascospores black, 12-18 x 6-10 microns (p. 140)
• D. vernicosa: Ascospores dark brown, 7-12 x 4.5-7 microns. (p. 264)

Additional substrates listed for D. concentrica include Acer, Alnus, Betula, Fagus, Salix.

HTH,

poschiavanus

[fairplay]

Thanks Alan and HTH, most helpful.

Didn't think to look in Ellis & Ellis as I would not think they came under micro-fungi.

Neil.

[NickCantle]

LOL Neil, Poschiavanus was the author of the post. HTH is 'Hope that helps'

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

LOL Neil, Poschiavanus was the author of the post. HTH is 'Hope that helps'

I've been thinking who HTH was too

[NickCantle]

All this fungi chat is going to your heads lads

[fairplay]

Dohhh !! I'm getting there, I'm getting there (slowly!)

I've had very little sleep lately, this dammed WAB is flipping addictive.
Nick, you must be getting even less sleep than I get,so don't you let your studies suffer.

Neil.

[CloudedYellow]

Thanks Alan and poschiavanus,

On appearance alone the Daldinia I found looked like concentrica, both when attached to the burnt log and in cross section. I have seen vernicosa and those like Alan describes had a small 'stipes'. I didn't think to take one to look for other features as they were on burnt gorse (ie little doubt in id).

Finding spores from my presumed concentrica proved to be as difficult as expected - I wonder if anyone has any tips? I didn't have much time last night but scraped out some of the softer material (ie several layers below the outer surface) and used congo red in 10% ammonia. I managed to find just one ascus containing three spores measuring 11x3.8u which suggests vernicosa! I will have another look this evening.

The only reference on the net I could find for different Daldinia sp. was an American site which lists some 20 species including concentrica but none of the other names I recognise so do not seem to be European sp.

Richard

[fairplay]

Some years back, on a BMS workshop, someone left a single Cramp Ball in a container overnight and in the morning the whole inside was a mass of spores, all 4 sides and the lid were covered.!

Whether this only happens at certain times of the year, I don't know, but this would seem to be the easiest way to obtain spores.

Perhaps your sample had shed most of it's spores and I wonder if anyone knows, if by looking at a Daldinia sp in situ, you can tell if it's shed the spores, but I'd imagine being several millions of them, the sporulation period must take several months, and even after that, I would think there must still be several thousand still lurking in there somewhere !

I have never tried preparing a slide for Daldinia, assuming the cover slip would just shatter, there is supposed to be softer material inside but I have never come across any.

Now I could do with some tips.

Neil.

[Fungus Ken]

Originally Posted by fairplay

Some years back, on a BMS workshop, someone left a single Cramp Ball in a container overnight and in the morning the whole inside was a mass of spores, all 4 sides and the lid were covered.!

That's because Daldinia concentrica is essentially a nocturnal spore discharger. So you would have to leave it in the dark overnight to get some spores. The spores shoot some distance from the fruiting body, so it's best not to put a slide right beside it to catch the spores or many will shoot right over it. But as a single fruiting body of this species is estimated to produce about 100 million spores each day it is active, there's a good chance of getting a decent sample.

If the fruiting body is actively discharging spores, you might be able to wipe some from the surface of the cramp ball onto a slide, but since the asci are hidden away in small, hard, black perithecia, there's no easy way of getting a squash without irritating little lumps that might break your cover slip.

In the past I have used a sharp scalpel to scrape a fine layer from the surface of pyrenomycetes such as this, and this can produce the goods. But again, if you are measuring spores, you really ought to make sure they are mature spores, and not unripe specimens prematurely extruded from their asci.

Ken

[Fungus Ken]

Just dug out my copy of Ingold's book on Disperal in Fungi. Here are some extracts on Daldinia concentrica:

"Daldinia concentrica is a special kind of xerophyte able to continue spore discharge during dry periods by virtue of a considerable reserve of water in the stromatal tissue. ... The surface layers of the stroma are extremely hard and resistant, and no doubt the nature of this tissue helps in reducing loss of water by evaporation. The very numerous perithecia occur immersed in this peripheral tissue. ...

A single stroma lasts only for one season, and the perithecia ripen and begin to shed their spores in May and may continue to do so until September. During this period discharge is not dependent upon rain but on the water reserve in the stroma. ... If an active stroma is brought into a dry room and left fully exposed without any extraneous water-supply, spore discharge will continue for weeks. ... It is only when evaporation has led to the reduction of the density of the stroma to less than 0.3 that spore discharge finally ceases."

So if you find a specimen that is actively discharging spores you should have no problem getting some to view under the microscope, providing you remember to leave it overnight when spore dispersal is at its peak.

Ken

[fairplay]

Thanks for taking the trouble to look that up Ken.

Neil.

[CloudedYellow]

Originally Posted by Fungus Ken

If the fruiting body is actively discharging spores, you might be able to wipe some from the surface of the cramp ball onto a slide, but since the asci are hidden away in small, hard, black perithecia, there's no easy way of getting a squash without irritating little lumps that might break your cover slip.

In the past I have used a sharp scalpel to scrape a fine layer from the surface of pyrenomycetes such as this, and this can produce the goods. But again, if you are measuring spores, you really ought to make sure they are mature spores, and not unripe specimens prematurely extruded from their asci.

Ken

I have have managed a partial squash using two slides to flatten some scrapings somewhat and then a little more using a coverslip without breaking it. I found two more asci with spores of the same size as above - seemingly two small for D. concentrica. The thought had occured to me that, as they were still contained within in an ascus, perhaps they are not full grown. I guess there is no way of telling. I will try to catch a few over the next few days and see what size they are!

Thanks v.much Ken

Richard

[CapAndBracket]

Today cybershot and i found these, Daldinia concentrica on betula.
This was on an area of heath which had burnt, the fire had killed the birch and within feet of these on burnt gorse appeared to be Daldinia vernicosa, with the rudimentary stem. this would suggest the species are very host specific.
The D.vernicosa (if that's what they are need time to develop) but i have brought home a couple of the D.concentrica to see if spores appear over night.

Cheers J.P.

[cybershot]

Not easy to access amongst the ash and debris but will be monitoring these Daldinia vernicosa which JP and I found on Yateley Common today.

David

[CloudedYellow]

Originally Posted by cybershot

Not easy to access amongst the ash and debris but will be monitoring these Daldinia vernicosa which JP and I found on Yateley Common today.

David

Yes David + J.P., please do.

I decided that 'mine' on a burnt log (ash, willow or birch) were concentrica. I think J.P. will turn out to be right - the host is the most important factor.

Richard

[NickCantle]

I'll be keeping an eye on this as to how it unfolds

[fairplay]

I may be wrong , but I thought that when D concentrica appears on Ash, the young fruit bodies are brown then turn black.

The fruiting bodies bursting through the bark on the birch are already black.
Does this have any significance I wonder ?

Neil.

[CapAndBracket]

Very good point, we go by what we see, and i seem to remember on ash that D.concentrica appear to be ON the ash whereas these appear to be bursting through the bark and are as you say very shinny (it was just so eye catching).
This prompted me to say to cybershot that there is a diifferent species that grow on burnt gorse which i had only seen once before and magicly there they were right next to us.
There sure were plenty of them on the betula, dissapointingly i have found some interesting things on fire sites this spring, but looking at the brunt ground around these produced nothing. Hope david will keep an eye on this area, especially after a rain when things tend to show up a lot clearer, ummm could be another impromptu foray into his area.

Anyway the two from betula i brought home are in a pudding bowl with paper over the top to stop escape's.

Cheers J.P.

[fairplay]

I would not expect to see too much in the way of fungi on a heath fire site as, if there was a strong wind the fire would sweep through quickly (why, I assume Adders survive - if they can get just beneath the surface in time ?) and the soil will not have been scorched enough.

The specialised fungi (phoenicoid fungi) thrive on sterilised soil because there is little competition from other fungi, but I would imagine the fire would have to be quite strong and prolonged to sterilise the soil properly.

If you have a copy of 'Fungi' by Brian Spooner and Peter Roberts, there is a large list of fire site soil fungi to be found, and you will discover ash has a role to play too. Ellis & Ellis (1988) have produced a general key to British phoenicoid ascomycetes.

After a good downpour, it would be really interesting to see what appears on the dead standing timber, because I live just a stones throw from heathland, but luckily we don't get too many heathland fires round here.

Neil.

PS. After you have obtained spores, do cut the 'ball' in half - the pattern may be different.

[cybershot]

My sample of D, concentrica from the betula sporulated by the bucket load overnight, so it's time for some microscopy practice following last week's workshop JP

The cross section of my very small specimen didn't reveal anything out of the ordinary.

Here is another photo taken yesterday in situ: