Next Big challenge

[flaxton]

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" is a good quote to start. We have currently got a thriving forum going with a lot of work being put in by a small number of knowledgeable people. As the number of new members grow the hours put in by that few will I expect become intolerable. So as I see it the next big challenge for the WAB community is to enable us Plebs (and that is not being derogatory) to be able to at least do most of the work of identification ourselves.
When we start the process of trying to identify a find we can just jump in and post the picture or we can search through the ever growing A-Z (either from the beginning or if we know the genus from that point) There are gems of advice hidden away in the forum but was it FungusKen that mentioned some "easy" way to split two species or was it Mykonik or was it FungiJohn or was it.....and in which thread?
I suppose the first stage could be to add the information to the photos rather than just leaving it to get buried in the individual thread, I know you can search for a keyword to help in locating that snipped of information but even at the moment to find the suggestions about splitting Trametes versicolor and ocracea searching for Trametes brings up 40+ threads.
I think I am basically looking for ways of not loosing the input of our experts by having them overwhelmed by our id requests.

Thought folks.

Mal

[cybershot]

This is a problem I have been pondering for some time, and although, if I am lucky enough to spot it, and then have the time and inclination to do so, some info has been filtering through to the A to Z in this manner. But as Mal says there is a wealth of invaluable information buried in the forums with no easy means of retrieval. Anyone can edit the entries in the A to Z list and even if you get frustrated, as I do, by the vagaries of its operation, it is simple enough to add a comment or copy and paste information to the Additional Note field and it can be incorporated as a full edit at a later date.

David

[cybershot]

For example see the edits updating the existing entry for Coprinopsis picacea. Also, having just read Leif's thread "Guess the fungus", I created an entry for Lactarius mairei by simply (??) uploading an image and adding notes and comments to Additional Notes for reference at a future date when full editing is carried out.

David

I don't yet regard the A to Z a sufficiently user friendly, comprehensive or authoritative aid to ID but certainly if armed with a number of possibilities it may well, when completed in the distant future, help narrow down the field.

[NickCantle]

I wanted to say exactly what Mal said, but I didn;t know how to word it and I didn't want to make the 'pros' feel like I was having a dig at them I just think that all of these resources are getting way too hard to handle for people with limited knowledge such as myself. Sometimes I guess it's just being able to put a name on it for their own gallery and the macro and microscopic details might be 'pushed aside quietly'

I don't know, but it baffles me sometimes...

Nick

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

I wanted to say exactly what Mal said, but I didn;t know how to word it and I didn't want to make the 'pros' feel like I was having a dig at them I just think that all of these resources are getting way too hard to handle for people with limited knowledge such as myself. Sometimes I guess it's just being able to put a name on it for their own gallery and the macro and microscopic details might be 'pushed aside quietly'

I don't know, but it baffles me sometimes...

Nick

Don’t underestimate yourself Nick. You’re part of the team and respected for it too

Here’s a few of my thoughts:

I couldn’t agree with you more Mal.

I also think we are very fortunate in having a team who rather than being in competition with each other seek only to help each other and ultimately help everyone else in the process. We all respect each other whether experienced or complete novices.

So, where do we go from here?

Identifications are always going to be expected. It is perhaps unfortunate that many new members don’t use our excellent gallery for an initial identification resource and still many more are unaware of our A to Z. I can well imagine this years main season seeing many more requests than of late too.

To help in this area I’m going to ask Stu if it is possible to change / add components to the fungi forum web page. What I have in mind is a ‘highlighted’ step by step process whereby members can quickly determine roughly what their species is. Hold on … I don’t mean keys … not yet!

My initial thoughts are of a series of small images on one page(s) stored in a sticky. For the sake of argument let’s call the first page ‘Common Amanita’s’ The page(s) would display an image comprising of say 20 separate named images. So, a page could easily hold 5 regular sized images containing 100 images. When I get time I’ll give an example.

Regarding past threads with valuable input and somehow keeping them live?

It would be ideal if these could be associated with their corresponding image. The A to Z seems the best platform for this and should minimise unnecessary duplication. Another method is by attaching this additional information to the ‘sticky’ I’ve suggested above.

Whichever method we decide on will still require all the data input so far to be found collated and located somewhere! This is the difficult part unless Stu can advise a better way

Just a few more thoughts … I’ll be back later ... it's time for my medicine

John

[NickCantle]

I'm glad I'm considered as one of the team, and I couldn't agree more on how good it is that we all work together and we aren't in competition with each other Not that I could afford to be in competition with you Mycobsessionists What a word

I think your proposed ideas are excellent John. I'll do all I can in my free time if you ever need any assistance.

Nick

[flaxton]

John
Your ideas sound great. It is just what I was hoping to hear. I look forward to watching this develop and participating, on the periphery, if possible.
Mal

[mykonik]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

I wanted to say exactly what Mal said, but I didn;t know how to word it and I didn't want to make the 'pros' feel like I was having a dig at them I just think that all of these resources are getting way too hard to handle for people with limited knowledge such as myself. Sometimes I guess it's just being able to put a name on it for their own gallery and the macro and microscopic details might be 'pushed aside quietly'

I don't know, but it baffles me sometimes...

Nick

Well Nick, I guess I do know (mycology) but I'm still baffled (and fascinated) frequently !

Can I just say, as a very new member of the WAB team, the only way for anyone to ever learn any mycology (or in fact anything about the natural world in all of its multitudinous facets) is to get firstly be 'confused' and then also to make mistakes - I did, on too many occasions to remember each time, but it's all part of a learning process, and I was lucky enough to have several pro's who were happy to give their knowledge freely. Initially 'limited knowledge' can only grow if you are genuinely interested in the subject, which it would appear that everyone who contributes to these forums, is !

And, with regards to 'just putting a name to each thing in their own gallery of images', surely (since this is 'taxononic science') one would want the correct name to put on your images, not simply the result of a near guess that can be shot down in due course ? In the coarsest sense, who would want to photograph a 'tortoise' (for instance) and label the picture a 'blue tit' (for instance !) ?

Just a thought !!

Nick

[NickCantle]

I didn't mean any disrespect at all Nick, I can assure you of that. All I'm saying is that I think it's wiser to break people in gently rather than scare them off with all of the high tech talk. Of course the high tech talk is excellent and myself and other WABbers are forever grateful for the effort put in by the more advanced members dealing in the Mycology field. It's truly fantastic to see some of the members come together and create such a professional team of field mycologists, and it makes me proud to be involved with those very people!

I guess to sum up, I feel that some people need to be broken in gently in their first posts and then introduced to the more advanced factors as they go, depending on the stage of knowledge they are already at.

But don't you go thinking that I don't appreciate and love the way you guys talk about the complex side, it's truly excellent and I enjoy it!

Sod it, all I'm saying is I get well confused loads

Nick

[mykonik]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

I didn't mean any disrespect at all Nick, I can assure you of that. All I'm saying is that I think it's wiser to break people in gently rather than scare them off with all of the high tech talk. Of course the high tech talk is excellent and myself and other WABbers are forever grateful for the effort put in by the more advanced members dealing in the Mycology field. It's truly fantastic to see some of the members come together and create such a professional team of field mycologists, and it makes me proud to be involved with those very people!

I guess to sum up, I feel that some people need to be broken in gently in their first posts and then introduced to the more advanced factors as they go, depending on the stage of knowledge they are already at.

But don't you go thinking that I don't appreciate and love the way you guys talk about the complex side, it's truly excellent and I enjoy it!

Sod it, all I'm saying is I get well confused loads

Nick

Absolutely NO dis-respect taken Nick - none what so-ever ! Please be assured of that ! You are talking absolute sense in my opinion.

And, as I sort of said previously, just because I may have done the job as a 'pro' doesn't mean that I too don't get 'well confused loads' (couldn't have put it better myself) even now - but for me, that's the fascinating bit - one of those subjects where one NEVER runs out of fascinating things to find and new things to see, and you struck me as one of those people with the same fascination !

I think that each one of us has his or her own pace and, as individuals, should always stick to whatever speed we want to get up to - it's the joint fascination that binds most naturalists together (irrespective of what branch of natural history one is into).


Nick

[cybershot]

It is inevitable with the wide range of experience of contributors that occasionally the novice field mycologists like Nick and I will feel a little out of our depth, but never-the-less we all still thoroughly enjoy participating as best we can and finding it endlessly fascinating reading the erudite and informative missives of the learned members. Where better to supplement the knowledge gained from foraying with groups and reading the literature.

Back in October, having seen the Bird section equivalent, I first suggested an enhanced Fungi List, including images, for the WAB Reference. I envisioned an online reference mirroring the principles of the popular publications and I still think, within limits, it is possible. The initial aim, using the resources of the gallery and forum contributions, was to create an A to Z with an entry for every verified species found by members giving the basic descriptions and information. In a minority of cases this has been achieved, viz:

http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/ar...erdigris-navel

But there is still an awfully long way to go, especially as, so far, insufficient microscopic data has been supplied and without which we can not be taken seriously.

Then comes the question of consolidating, selecting and storing within the relevant entries, the supplementary salient information supplied in torrents every day on both the WAB website and in the learned society and association publications, etc. To do this in a manner that would keep this reference viable would take an enormous team of researchers and editors; a resource we don't have, other than the volunteers who already do as much as they can to get the scheme off the ground. (We could use some of that free time Nick )


So perhaps it is time, as John says, to rethink the strategy.

David

[NickCantle]

Something else I've thought about is tallying our finds. It's excellent having our great resources such as the forum, the gallery and the a-z, but is there anywhere where we can submit a find? Perhaps a section for us to submit species lists when we foray? A place where we can enter the amount of species and specimens we discovered? Again, rather vague, but another potential help in stringing it all together to become the most valuable fungi resource on the web

Nick

[cybershot]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

Something else I've thought about is tallying our finds. It's excellent having our great resources such as the forum, the gallery and the a-z, but is there anywhere where we can submit a find? Perhaps a section for us to submit species lists when we foray? A place where we can enter the amount of species and specimens we discovered? Again, rather vague, but another potential help in stringing it all together to become the most valuable fungi resource on the web

Nick

Now you are talking databases Nick. As you know both the BMS and the ABFG have these sorts of records. Your collections, as a member of 'Shrooms, go to the ABFG, those you make as an individual can go anywhere.

David

[NickCantle]

Ohhh, okay. Now were talking big stuff What about when we foray together? Should we keep a record of what we find? Even when I'm on my own? All I'm thinking is that if I go out on my own, if I made note of every species that I found, would it be benefiting the site's resources in any way?

[cybershot]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

Ohhh, okay. Now were talking big stuff What about when we foray together? Should we keep a record of what we find? Even when I'm on my own? All I'm thinking is that if I go out on my own, if I made note of every species that I found, would it be benefiting the site's resources in any way?

In that respect, like J.P., I have made the decision to submit my own records to the ABFG database. We would have to confer over finds we made whilst out together on impromptu forays, so as to avoid duplication if you wished to do otherwise.

How a WAB record would operate I am not too sure.

David

[NickCantle]

Okay, from that I gather the general gist is to keep things simple for the time being and taking one thing at a time

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

Okay, from that I gather the general gist is to keep things simple for the time being and taking one thing at a time

Some very interesting thoughts whilst I was away but Nick's last comment sums it up neatly with respect to the initial post by Mal.

It’s how we consolidate what we already have and how we may improve on things, especially in terms of using ‘team’ expertise’.

Electronic mail as on a website is always flawed. By flawed, I mean that it is often very difficult to maintain a sufficient flow of information in order to reach a conclusion. If we all met one evening and sat round a table to discuss things we would solve many of our problems and still have time for a drink and to have a chat about other things … such as … the weather, the price of butter, cars

Anyway back to reality, we all appear to be heading in the same direction and I just think we maybe need to step back occasionally to take stock. Exactly what Mal as done. I really think we are on a winner with this unique fungi resource.

Hopefully I’ll get a chance tomorrow to provide an example of the ‘images’ page I referred to, move ID'd images over to the gallery, post a few pictures of Ash trees for Sarah, moderate new images, ban the daily spammers, and fit in a full day at university developing a sharepoint portal … Oh what joy!

John

[NickCantle]

As that Mycologist somewhere once said;

"INDEED! I CONCUR!"

When are we all meeting for a drink then? Sounds good to me! What are you playing at John, writing about all of this fungi business? My Woodpecker needs moderating into the gallery

On a serious note, it's good to have threads like this as to ascertain thoughts from everyone and combine ideas and reasonings.

Nick

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by NickCantle

As that Mycologist somewhere once said;

"INDEED! I CONCUR!"

When are we all meeting for a drink then? Sounds good to me! What are you playing at John, writing about all of this fungi business? My Woodpecker needs moderating into the gallery

On a serious note, it's good to have threads like this as to ascertain thoughts from everyone and combine ideas and reasonings.

Nick

Indeed Nick

A woodpecker eh. It had better be good

Absolutely sound words Nick ... right, back to image moderation

[FungiJohn]

Hello all

Here is an example of what I referred to earlier. It's only a quick example but I think it may prove useful

Quick Fungi ID Chart 1



Ideally we should be looking at images showing as many characteristics as possible and I suppose even microscopic images eventually.

The charts will be in Quick Fungi Identification Charts

What do you think?

John