Sarcoscypha austriaca vs Sarcoscypha coccinea

[FungiJohn]

I recently uploaded images of what I thought was Sarcoscypha austriaca from both Hawks Wood (Thorpe Salvin Woods) and Clumber Park.

However, on microscopic examination the species from Clumber Park proved to be Sarcoscypha coccinea.

Historically and interestingly, initial identifications of this fungus in general stated that it was Sarcoscypha coccinea. Later people started to realise that they had in fact found Sarcoscypha austriaca.

However, the tendency now is to assume one has found Sarcoscypha austriaca … odd game this fungi

There are two distinct microscopic differences between the two species.

The spores of Sarcoscypha austriaca are round ended whereas those of Sarcoscypha coccinea are elliptical. Also the hairs on Sarcoscypha coccinea are straight whereas those on Sarcoscypha austriaca are ‘cork screw’ shaped. Yes I know that is difficult to see under the microscope... but there is quite a difference … honest

I must admit I’m not totally convinced re the spore shapes though

Here are microscope images taken of the spores and Excipular hairs of Sarcoscypha coccinea:





and Sarcoscypha austriaca:





Many thanks to my good friend and mycologist Ken Rowland for all his help.

John

[Leif]

I must admit that I am still waiting for the spore print to form, and then I will examine the hyphae etc. I read that the paraphyses are also of use for nailing an id.

I am not convinced that there is much difference between your spores, or even the hairs. Oh for a small label on the hyphae that we could keep secret from all but the cognescenti.

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by Leif

I am not convinced that there is much difference between your spores, or even the hairs. Oh for a small label on the hyphae that we could keep secret from all but the cognescenti.

Ken did the original work on the Clumber species .. these are my attempts The 'corkscrew' type hairs were quite evident in the Hawks Wood specimen ... But I am beginning to wonder now if they are both coccinea.

Yes, I think every fungi should have an id card

[Fungus Ken]

I said in another post that I doubted the difference in the shape of the spores would be as clear cut as the article in the Spring 2008 issue of the Forayer implies.

The hairs in your two photos both look to me much more like the photomicrographs of the hairs of Sarcoscypha coccinea. Yet a substantial proportion of the spores look blunt ended, which would imply Sarcoscypha austriaca. You certainly couldn't say that the majority were round-ended, which is supposed to be the case in S. coccinea. Then again, perhaps things would become clearer if you looked at a larger number of spores.

I remain to be convinced about how easy it is to separate these two species.

As to why the names have changed, that's a very good question and I'll give you my perspective.

Friends of mine who were looking at fungi in the 1960s and 1970s, long before I got started, say that life was much easier then. You just had "good old Lange and Hora, Guide to Mushrooms and Toadstools" which had a paltry 600 species... and you just made your finds fit with one of the pictures in the book. Easy.

It all got a lot more complicated once Roger Phillips brought out his book and other literature and guides started to appear in English. (No criticism of Roger Phillips's excellent piece of work intended of course.)

In Lange and Hora there is only Sarcoscypha coccinea, so naturally everything was labelled as that. Roll forward to 1981 and the revised edition of Dennis's British Ascomycetes and we still have only the one species.

Fungi of Switzerland Volume 1 published in 1984 still only has the one species.

It wasn't until I bought Nordic Macromycetes Volume 1 (published in 2000) that I had some literature which actually acknowledged there were two species.

So once literature recognising the existence of two species became more widely available, this message gradually filtered through to British field mycologists and some keen people began to check the hairs... and it turned out that most of the finds had curly hairs so they were all now called Sarcoscypha austriaca.

This doesn't reflect any real change in the distribution of the species. It is simply that the majority of specimens found in the UK turn out to have curly hairs.

There may have been changes over the years in the relative frequencies of the two species but there is no way of telling from the data because the majority of the records up to the end of the last century will not have been backed up with microscopic examination of the key characters that separate the two species.

There are other interesting tales along similar lines but this post has already gone on for far too long.

Ken

[Fungus Ken]

Oh, and while I remember, to fill in another link in the history, Courtecuisse and Duhem had their authoritative Collins guide published in the mid 1990s and they only listed Sarcoscypha coccinea.

Ken

[FungiJohn]

Thanks Ken. I was actually going to do a count of the spores but given that it was almost 3am in the morning I felt that enough time had been spent on analysis. There’s others waiting.

I’m going to leave the Hawks Wood species as Sarcoscypha austriaca. I’ll give them the benefit of doubt until perhaps more useful literature is available.

Right, what’s next

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by Fungus Ken

Oh, and while I remember, to fill in another link in the history, Courtecuisse and Duhem had their authoritative Collins guide published in the mid 1990s and they only listed Sarcoscypha coccinea.

Ken

I was just going to refer to Courtecuisse and Duhem myself

[Fungus Ken]

Originally Posted by FungiJohn

given that it was almost 3am in the morning I felt that enough time had been spent on analysis.

Your other half must be a lot more understanding than mine. My curfew is well before midnight.

Ken

[FungiJohn]

Originally Posted by Fungus Ken

Your other half must be a lot more understanding than mine. My curfew is well before midnight.

Ken

It's the only time she can get some proper sleep Ken

[Fungus Ken]

Originally Posted by FungiJohn

It's the only time she can get some proper sleep Ken

I'd better not ask why.

Ken