The ultimate environmental sacrifice?

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Deb London

I agree that we are unimportant in some ways. But we have choices and it's my opinion that the pleasure we gain from materialism is very false. Sometimes it's the people who have nothing that have the widest smiles on their faces. I must admit, I have found only a handful of people who agree with me here - now there's a surprise, LOL.

....I agree with you about society's attitude towards materialism and it is as well to remember that no matter how rich you are, there are others who are richer, and no matter how badly off you are (both materially and otherwise), there are those who are poorer.

I see no point in being anti materialism though. It's rather that we should always keep things in perspective. Being anti tends to breed bitterness and negativity and consequently a degree of unhappiness. As always, it's a question of balance.

Materially I'm not in the least bit interested in giving up my petrol guzzling throbbing red chariot and I enjoy every mile. Similarly, when a rich friend suggests paying for us to fly to Geneva just for lunch, I jump for joy and don't refuse.

All this doesn't mean that I can't enjoy wildlife and do other things to help the environment in my own small way.

[Deb London]

It's a very interesting discussion, but hard to do justice on a forum and might not be appropriate. I can never envy people who are well off in the way that one or two of my friends do. Being anti-materialistic is very liberating. So not only is it good for the planet, and better for people without too much money, I reckon it makes you feel better about things, and yourself, but in a different way.

Bitterness? I guess that follows comparison, and is linked to envy, and not a very good feeling at all. It's no use comparing yourself to someone else. What will that achieve? And anyway, how do people manage to find the time for bitterness and jealousy? Seriously I don't get it.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Deb London

It's a very interesting discussion, but hard to do justice on a forum and might not be appropriate. I can never envy people who are well off in the way that one or two of my friends do.

....I agree. I don't envy anybody - Neither rich nor poor.

Originally Posted by Deb London

Being anti-materialistic is very liberating. So not only is it good for the planet, and better for people without too much money, I reckon it makes you feel better about things, and yourself, but in a different way.

....Everyone is different. I could never be anti-materialistic but neither am I pro-materialism. We each need/desire different things for different purposes.

Originally Posted by Deb London

Bitterness? I guess that follows comparison, and is linked to envy, and not a very good feeling at all. It's no use comparing yourself to someone else. What will that achieve? And anyway, how do people manage to find the time for bitterness and jealousy? Seriously I don't get it.

....It's only a generalisation but in my experience those who are very strongly anti-materialistic, or strongly anti anything, tend to have a lot of bitterness and frustration and take life far too seriously in my opinion.

A married couple who are both good friends of mine are very anti materialistic, very left-wing, veggie types, and always emotionally torn by what they see going on in the world. I respect their opinions and surprisingly they appear to respect mine, but I can only stand their company for short periods due to their negativity and bitterness. I think they feed off each other.

I don't want much.... I just want a lot of it! < Not really me but I do have a shopping list which includes a bigger fully loaded 27" iMac, Leica X1 camera, carbonfibre wings for my car, better binoculars, plus one or two other less expensive things. Oh, and a Middle Eastern flute. It's no big deal when/if I get these material things.

I can't help thinking that the act of sacrifice is often done to satisfy someone's conscience or to make them feel better about themselves. There are other ways of being a better human being. After me, you're first

[Deb London]

Originally Posted by Red Robin

....I agree. I don't envy anybody - Neither rich nor poor.



....Everyone is different. I could never be anti-materialistic but neither am I pro-materialism. We each need/desire different things for different purposes.



....It's only a generalisation but in my experience those who are very strongly anti-materialistic, or strongly anti anything, tend to have a lot of bitterness and frustration and take life far too seriously in my opinion.

A married couple who are both good friends of mine are very anti materialistic, very left-wing, veggie types, and always emotionally torn by what they see going on in the world. I respect their opinions and surprisingly they appear to respect mine, but I can only stand their company for short periods due to their negativity and bitterness. I think they feed off each other.

I don't want much.... I just want a lot of it! < Not really me but I do have a shopping list which includes a bigger fully loaded 27" iMac, Leica X1 camera, carbonfibre wings for my car, better binoculars, plus one or two other less expensive things. Oh, and a Middle Eastern flute. It's no big deal when/if I get these material things.

I can't help thinking that the act of sacrifice is often done to satisfy someone's conscience or to make them feel better about themselves. There are other ways of being a better human being. After me, you're first

Mmm, there can be a lot of martyrdom involved. A way to attract attention sometimes. But if done ease a conscience I reckon that's a good thing. What on earth is a conscience for if not to be a better person on the inside. The people I know who have no conscience are potential serial killers to be honest.

The ultimate environmental sacrifice could be similar to the ultimate human sacrifice and might start with a belief that it's not all "me, me, me". Possible they even think "after you, I'm first".

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Deb London

Mmm, there can be a lot of martyrdom involved. A way to attract attention sometimes. But if done ease a conscience I reckon that's a good thing. What on earth is a conscience for if not to be a better person on the inside. The people I know who have no conscience are potential serial killers to be honest.

The ultimate environmental sacrifice could be similar to the ultimate human sacrifice and might start with a belief that it's not all "me, me, me". Possible they even think "after you, I'm first".

....I don't think it's quite so black & white, Deb: In some circumstances it's "After you, I'm first" and in other circumstances it's "After me, you're first". If I don't look after me, how can I look after someone else? And we don't always do what we think is 'right' or what we think ought to be done. Human beings are complex intelligences.

[Deb London]

Yes, but at least environmental sacrifices are easy to understand and make.
But let's face it, even if people are willing to make sacrifices for the sake of the planet, most people will do so half-heartedly because they think that their contribution won't make a difference, as most people are simply doing what they want. The planet is doomed. Am I right? I think so.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Deb London

The planet is doomed. Am I right? I think so.

....The term "doomed" suggests death or destruction or at least a terrible fate. But fate is merely something beyond our control and that isn't necessarily so terrible. Most human beings aren't comfortable with things they feel are beyond their control.

[Deb London]

In this case I mean failure, as a species, on a planet with finite resources and (for whatever reason) unstable environment (I think people have heard this so many times that it's boring). If we treat the planet with respect that will buy us a bit more time. That might be important for the individuals concerned, physically and mentally. But the planet will eventually die and I doubt we will be capable of inhabiting the uninhabitable, even by then.

So yes people are powerless in terms of physical destiny. And if understanding all that doesn't make you think about what's important, what will? When I started to realise how futile holding onto life was, it almost turned me religious, I can tell you.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Deb London

In this case I mean failure, as a species, on a planet with finite resources and (for whatever reason) unstable environment (I think people have heard this so many times that it's boring). If we treat the planet with respect that will buy us a bit more time. That might be important for the individuals concerned, physically and mentally. But the planet will eventually die and I doubt we will be capable of inhabiting the uninhabitable, even by then.

So yes people are powerless in terms of physical destiny. And if understanding all that doesn't make you think about what's important, what will? When I started to realise how futile holding onto life was, it almost turned me religious, I can tell you.

....I realised after I posted that you meant doomed in the sense of failure but couldn't edit. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this, Deb. I can understand how many people find comfort in religion but I think none of us know until we get there! I try to respect all religions but don't follow one myself. As Billy Connolly says: "Jesus Christ! Is it that time already?"

I think we all live in our own little worlds and each do or don't do or 'sacrifice' or not as we each feel appropriate. None of us should feel either guilty or self-righteous about it. We are who we are and it's best to be honest about ourselves.

It is an interesting conversation as you say, Deb - Thanx for bringing it out [Everyone else seems to have gone quiet]

[worthyone]

What a fascinating discussion, but oh dear - mea culpa - I have five children ranging in age from 19 upwards. I take full responsibility for my own contribution to the population explosion, but in my defense I can only say that I didn't know that I was ruining the planet when I had them (I do now and I promise there won't be any more) and I didn't have a TV set (still don't).
On the plus side, one of my daughters has made the decision, for environmental reasons, that she and her husband won't have children. They are also wildlife loving vegetarians who live more sustainably than most. My two (student) sons are environmentally aware, but looking forward to being parents and I have two, somewhat materialistic, daughters with four (delightful) children between them.
Like most people our awareness of environmental issues has been a gradual enlightenment, but about six years ago my husband and I got together with a small group of our friends to look at our lifestyles and see what changes we might need to make, in order to live more sustainable and more ethically. We studied a book called L is for Lifestyle; Homepage - lisforlifestyle and since then our previously minor lifestyle changes have become much more radical.