Hydro Electricity on our Rivers

[barbel]

Just learnt that my local council are planning on spending £900,000 on 2 hydro electricity plant on a small local river called the river Goyt.

Whats worst is that this system will never make 1p profit in 20 years and is only forecast to work for 30 years.

I must admit Ive only looked at wind power as an alternative but a similar investment would payback within 6-7 years?

Ive spoken to the people that run the Torrs Hydro in New Mills, Derbyshire and they say they have been plaged with problems and poor weather, i.e. when the river is low it makes no electricity and when levels are high or in a state of flood it makes no electricity.

I know the EA are looking at sites for hydro across the UK and its only a matter of time before your local council will be jumping on the "Look at us we're so green" band wagon.

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[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by barbel

Just learnt that my local council are planning on spending £900,000 on 2 hydro electricity plant on a small local river called the river Goyt.

Whats worst is that this system will never make 1p profit in 20 years and is only forecast to work for 30 years.

I must admit Ive only looked at wind power as an alternative but a similar investment would payback within 6-7 years?

Ive spoken to the people that run the Torrs Hydro in New Mills, Derbyshire and they say they have been plaged with problems and poor weather, i.e. when the river is low it makes no electricity and when levels are high or in a state of flood it makes no electricity.

I know the EA are looking at sites for hydro across the UK and its only a matter of time before your local council will be jumping on the "Look at us we're so green" band wagon.

this is a link to a facebook group
Log In | Facebook

Just had a quick look at the Torrs Hydro site. It tells you how many kWhrs of power it can produce per annum, but not how many kWhrs it cost to design, build, install and run the system. Thats kind of crucial in working out whether it is a good idea or not.

Anyone got any more (generic will do) info?

[Doggle Avaddit]

Oh, and not forgetting the disposal costs once it has served its useful purpose.

[The Woodman]

These are a few of my notes that might help.

Hydro power generation is defined in steps:

Pico: <5kW
Micro: 5kW – 100kW
Small/Mini: 100kW – 30MW
Large: >30MW

You might also want to have a look at the Renewable Obligation Certificate scheme to understand more about the finace structure.

Available Flow Rate: The available flow rate in a water course is determined by a number of factors:

The size of the watercourse catchment draining to the collection point for the generating system.
The physical characteristics of the catchment terrain such as gradient, vegetation, soil type etc.
The long term rainfall characteristics of the local area.
The quantity required to be left in the river for environmental reasons; this will be identified by the EA.
Power Generated: The power generated from the water can be calculated by formulas which take into account the head, flow rate, gravity, friction and other losses due equipment efficencies but an indication of the power that can be achieved from the equation: Power Produced (kW) = 7 x Available Flow Rate (m3/sec) x Head (m)

Power produced is measured in kWh (kilowatt hours) e.g. a site with a 5 kW output will theoretically produce (365 x 24 x 5) = 43,800 kWh of electrical energy per year.

Efficiency: The efficiency of hydro electricity equipment is variable with the best units achieving 90% efficiency. Typical overall efficiencies for the pico / micro size systems are lower at around 50 – 75% depending on size, type and location. For example the system discussed in the previous section will only be able to generate between 21,900 and 30,660 kilowatt hours of electrical energy from the available energy of the water flow.

Costs The following costing information is general and current prices should be sought for budgeting purposes.
Capital Costs System costs vary depending on the site, type of system used and distance from connection point.
Typical costs are in the region of £2,000 - £9,000 per installed kW with costs for sites with a limited water flow and a low available head being at the higher level and possibly considerably more on some sites.
Running Costs Running costs are in the region of 2% of the installation cost per year, less if a high proportion of the installation cost was infrastructure. The components of the system are simple and require little maintenance and should have a lifespan in the region of 20 years.

Returns The primary benefit to be obtained from electricity generation is from replacing existing electricity supplied to the business as this is the highest value that can be obtained in the region of 9 – 15 pence per kilowatt hour (January 2009).
Income sold either directly to an electricity supplier or through a broker will have a value of between 4 – 6 pence per kilowatt hour (January 2009) depending on the market demand for renewable energy.
In addition to the energy produced all electricity suppliers are required to produce a percentage of their power from renewable sources 9.1 percent in 2008/09 rising to 15.4% in 2015/16. The government provides support of around 5 pence per kilowatt hour in the form of Renewable Obligation Certificates (ROC’s) 1 ROC being issued for each MWh of electricity produced from a renewable source.
Producers of electricity from micro generation systems (under 50kW installed capacity) may be eligible for 2 ROC’s per MWh from April 2009; thereafter small systems may be able to obtain a subsidy in the region of 10 pence per kilowatt hour produced. The value of ROC’s may vary up or down depending on demand.

[barbel]

Thanks for that reply but its only the figures I can see,

Hydro = payback 20 years, life 30 years

Wind = payback 6 -7 years or less in better area, life 30 years

Also wind turbines use a lot metal in there fabrication that can be sold on, where as hydro the bulk cost is in the earth moving and build costs.
Nobody will want to buy old concrete walls and a hole in the ground.

[Lancashire Lad]

From the limited information on the Torrs Hydro site, it appears that the total outlay was in the order of £361,000 (just short of £126,000 in shares, £165,000 as a grant, and £70,000 loan).

The details advise that average output is 40-50Kw, with average of 240,000 units per annum, selling for about £24,000 with a profit of £3,000.

There is mention of volounteers (presumably from the shareholder pool) who carry out maintenance etc. - My question would be - were it not for these volounteers, (and taking account of any incidental maintenance materials costs), would there still be a profit margin? Such developments need to be financially viable before any thoughts of rolling them out all over the country. (In my view the government subsidies including the ROC's scheme aren't doing any favours regards the ability to equate to what is actually economically viable).

However, I suppose the way to look at such developments needs to be fairly pragmatic. They are providing power for the local community, potential (via profits) for funding local needs, community spirit, etc. etc. So, provided that they don't stick out like a sore thumb, and that they really don't have any adverse effect on the environment in which they are constructed, why not.

Regards,
Mike.

[birding dave]

Originally Posted by barbel

Wind = payback 6 -7 years or less in better area, life 30 years

I don't know where you get these figures from. Most wind turbines seem to be unmoving for the majority of their time, producing no electricity, some need to have their turbines moving in periods of low wind, to prevent problems with the shafts and bearings, so actually use electricity. ALL the wind turbines that we see - eyesores cluttering up the countryside - take far more energy to produce than they can ever save in their use.

[brendaward]

wonder what people thought of the beautiful old watermills and windmills that we fight so hard to preserve in our countryside?

Wonder, why do we have to build the modern ones on a massive scale?(wind farms look like tele-tubby land.) (Hydro dams look like wartime gunner shelters.)

Why not line the motorways with concrete windmills there is always breeze there with the turbulence from traffic instead of blighting the countryside? The motorway is already already a blott on the landscape!

Why don't they turn the Thames flood barrier into a hydro-dam or put one near the houses of parliament? (I think we know the answer to this one.)

[barbel]

Yes Im sure the Thames flood barrier could be retro fitting with lots of mini turbines and put a wind turbine on each island along with a bit of solar on the top of the O2 dome

[pressld2]

You could put wind turbines on it but you couldn't use it for hydro generation because it's not a dam. The Thames is a navigable waterway and 99.9% of the time the Barrier is down leaving the flow completely un-restricted. It's only raised when there is a very high tide or a storm surge. Some years it never gets raised at all (e.g. 1989, 1991) while other years it's up and down like a yo-yo (19 times in 2003).

Dave P.