Ragwort Hysteria

[Swallowtail]

Originally Posted by Cypress

No mean feat!! Ragwort is the bain of summer, having 7 horses and trying to endlessly pull the dratted stuff, it's impossible now and sadly the only option is to completely top & reseed the bottom field..

Sorry for posting into such an old thread but this is an important point. Researching this siubject I, like many entomologists, am very concerned about ragwort Hysteria of which this seems to be an example.

It is one of our most important wildlife plants.

There is a lot of nonsense spoken about ragwort. Poisoning is actually, if you look at the research as I have, done rather rare. The risks are grossly exagerated as any member of Buglife, the Invertebrate Conservation Trust knows. The risks are quite small and you are probably wasting a lot of money.

Please see the following
Buglife | Ragwort | Ragwort: Yellow Peril or Precious Flower?
and
Ragwort - Is it as bad as you think?

[wildliferescuer]

Originally Posted by Cypress

I'd like to know;
Do you volunteer with environment/wildlife in your spare time?
What do you do & how many days or hours do you spend?

I'd like to spend a little spare time doing something, (I always worked with rescue animals/horses) though we have a menagerie to look after and my spare time is limited so just getting some info. Does anyone clean rivers/woods etc of litter or help with wildlife rescue, wall building, hedging etc?

We are always looking for volunteers if you are interested in helping at a wildlife rescue. We are in Worcestershire, between Evesham & Tewkesbury.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Swallowtail

Sorry for posting into such an old thread but this is an important point. Researching this siubject I, like many entomologists, am very concerned about ragwort Hysteria of which this seems to be an example.

It is one of our most important wildlife plants.

There is a lot of nonsense spoken about ragwort. Poisoning is actually, if you look at the research as I have, done rather rare. The risks are grossly exagerated as any member of Buglife, the Invertebrate Conservation Trust knows. The risks are quite small and you are probably wasting a lot of money.

Please see the following
Buglife | Ragwort | Ragwort: Yellow Peril or Precious Flower?
and
Ragwort - Is it as bad as you think?

at the risk of taking this thread off subject (mods feel free to move to a new thread if you wish) I think you are rather missing the point.

Many wildlife trusts and other reserves fund or part fund the management of thie meadow programes through the sale of the hay crop (typically a local farmer does the cutting baling etc in return for the hay) - but you can't sell hay that has ragwort in it - instead it has to go to landfil.

similiarly many also fund their programmes by tenanting their aftermath grazing - but again you can't rent feilds for grazing which have a significant ragwort problem.

Therefore from an entymolologist point of view you have to balance the small loss of ragwort habitat (which is not pronounced given the ammount on roadsides, embankments, etc) with the tremendous gain that sensitive grassland management has for a much larger range of insects.

[Swallowtail]

Originally Posted by eeyore

at the risk of taking this thread off subject (mods feel free to move to a new thread if you wish) I think you are rather missing the point.

Many wildlife trusts and other reserves fund or part fund the management of thie meadow programes through the sale of the hay crop (typically a local farmer does the cutting baling etc in return for the hay) - but you can't sell hay that has ragwort in it - instead it has to go to landfil.

similiarly many also fund their programmes by tenanting their aftermath grazing - but again you can't rent feilds for grazing which have a significant ragwort problem.

Therefore from an entymolologist point of view you have to balance the small loss of ragwort habitat (which is not pronounced given the ammount on roadsides, embankments, etc) with the tremendous gain that sensitive grassland management has for a much larger range of insects.

I don't deny that ragwort can be a problem in hay. That is the only significant problem. It is not, the science clearly tells us, usually a problem in other circumstances.
Most nature reserve control is probably influenced by the hysteria. I have spoken to many people in charge of nature reserves who believe the hysteria myths. See the links I posted.
The do not remove the grass which is statistically more of a risk to horses though Equine Grass Sickness which is commoner than ragwort poisoning!
However we are often falsely told there is a legal requirement to control it. There is not and this leads to roadsides and embankments being attacked and cleared when there is no risk.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Swallowtail

I don't deny that ragwort can be a problem in hay. That is the only significant problem. It is not, the science clearly tells us, usually a problem in other circumstances.
Most nature reserve control is probably influenced by the hysteria. I have spoken to many people in charge of nature reserves who believe the hysteria myths. See the links I posted.
The do not remove the grass which is statistically more of a risk to horses though Equine Grass Sickness which is commoner than ragwort poisoning!
However we are often falsely told there is a legal requirement to control it. There is not and this leads to roadsides and embankments being attacked and cleared when there is no risk.

again you are missing the point - if you tennant grazing it is not about what you believe but what the potential tennant believes and most tennants wont rent grazing inundated with ragwort - thus the wildlife trust needs to remove it.

aftermath grazing is largely done with sheep so equine grass sickness isnt an issue.

on the issue of legal requirements you are partly correct - there is no specific legal requirement to remove it from embankments etc however if you dont remove it and it spreads into a third parties land and contaminates their hay crop or grazing then you would be guilty of private nuisance under the law of torts and thus open to litigation.

you are also legally required to remove it from hay fields as it is an offence to sell hay which is contaminated with anything that could cause harm to the customers livestock.

There is a long thread running on ragwort so i strongly suggest we take this debate over there, rather than hijack this thread - I will pm a mod and ask them to move these posts.

[Swallowtail]

Originally Posted by eeyore

again you are missing the point - if you tennant grazing it is not about what you believe but what the potential tennant believes and most tennants wont rent grazing inundated with ragwort - thus the wildlife trust needs to remove it.

aftermath grazing is largely done with sheep so equine grass sickness isnt an issue.

on the issue of legal requirements you are partly correct - there is no specific legal requirement to remove it from embankments etc however if you dont remove it and it spreads into a third parties land and contaminates their hay crop or grazing then you would be guilty of private nuisance under the law of torts and thus open to litigation.

you are also legally required to remove it from hay fields as it is an offence to sell hay which is contaminated with anything that could cause harm to the customers livestock.

There is a long thread running on ragwort so i strongly suggest we take this debate over there, rather than hijack this thread - I will pm a mod and ask them to move these posts.

I am sorry if you think this is an inapproprate thread. If moderators wish to move it they can but this is a VERY IMPORTANT CONSERVATION ISSUE.
It doesn't just relate to ragwort it relates to the harm being done to all wildflowers in fields,verges and uncultivated land due to ignorance caused by hysteria and unscientific thinking. Do you think the gangs of people sent out to clear verges in the false belief that ragwort can spread easily can tell it from other plants?

I am sorry but I don't think that you understand what I am saying.
Firstly Ragwort poisoning is rare. Ignore the propaganda and look at the peer reviewed data. So rare that you can probably count the annual cases on your fingers and if you look again at the peer reviewed data it is caused generally by neglect. Your legal arguments are, looking at the peer reviewed data, spurious. The risk of anyone being able to prove that ragwort spread onto their land ( It does not spread quickly. Ignore the propaganda look at the science. ) and then causing the incredibly rare event of poisoning is so minute as to be irrelevant. Even small quantities in hay are probably not a problem.

I used the example of Equine Grass Sickness to illustrate a point you seem to have missed. It is associated with horses eating grass. The published data show that it is COMMONER than ragwort poisoning. Therefore grass is actually more dangerous statistically. I know this may seem strange but it is true from the published data because ragwort is that rare a problem.

I am puzzled why you should seem to think that conservation grazing could be done always by sheep. Sheep are frequently not appropriate.

A number of conservation charities , including Buglife are working hard to undo the damage being done by ignorance on this issue. It would be a pity if the charity running this site would be allowed to undermine this valueable work. Please before you use these charitable facilities, check the science.

Please stop talking up these minute risks into a massive problem.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Swallowtail

I am sorry if you think this is an inapproprate thread. If moderators wish to move it they can but this is a VERY IMPORTANT CONSERVATION ISSUE.
It doesn't just relate to ragwort it relates to the harm being done to all wildflowers in fields,verges and uncultivated land due to ignorance caused by hysteria and unscientific thinking. Do you think the gangs of people sent out to clear verges in the false belief that ragwort can spread easily can tell it from other plants?

I am sorry but I don't think that you understand what I am saying.
Firstly Ragwort poisoning is rare. Ignore the propaganda and look at the peer reviewed data. So rare that you can probably count the annual cases on your fingers and if you look again at the peer reviewed data it is caused generally by neglect. Your legal arguments are, looking at the peer reviewed data, spurious. The risk of anyone being able to prove that ragwort spread onto their land ( It does not spread quickly. Ignore the propaganda look at the science. ) and then causing the incredibly rare event of poisoning is so minute as to be irrelevant. Even small quantities in hay are probably not a problem.

I used the example of Equine Grass Sickness to illustrate a point you seem to have missed. It is associated with horses eating grass. The published data show that it is COMMONER than ragwort poisoning. Therefore grass is actually more dangerous statistically. I know this may seem strange but it is true from the published data because ragwort is that rare a problem.

I am puzzled why you should seem to think that conservation grazing could be done always by sheep. Sheep are frequently not appropriate.

A number of conservation charities , including Buglife are working hard to undo the damage being done by ignorance on this issue. It would be a pity if the charity running this site would be allowed to undermine this valueable work. Please before you use these charitable facilities, check the science.

Please stop talking up these minute risks into a massive problem.

a) you still arent understanding the point - I'm a conservation proffesional and I know that incidenceas of ragwort poisoning are very rare (I also heard you the first time). However meadow/grassland restoration programmes run by wildlife trusts are frequently dependent on the income derived from selling the hay and renting the grazing so what matters in not what i know but what the customers think , and i know from experience that it is very hard to sell hay with ragwort in it and even harder to rent grazing that has a lot of ragwort. Lose this income and their wont be any grassland restoration on these sites

b) Yes wildlife trust volunteers can tell the difference between ragwort and orther plants - its pretty distinctive and anyway training is provided. Dave is a very knowledgeable poster and can definitely tell the difference.

c) I dont speak for the site/charity I'm just another poster but imo WAB arent undermining anything just encouraging an exchange of views

d) Aftermath grazing (ie the grazing that is done after the hay cut) , is nearly always done with sheep, usually at a low headage rate. Other conservation grazing may be done with horses (though usually dartmoor ponies which are much more robust that your standard equine), goats, porgs, or cattle depending on the environment and need

and finally

e) yes this is an important issue (though possibly not as critical as you seem to think it is) but the place to discuss it is on a thread about ragwort not on a thread about what various wab members do to help wildlife, hence my request that the mods split this thread.

[Swallowtail]

The issue affects nearly every nature reserve in Britain. There are a number of rare and endangered wildlife species afffected and at least one SSSI has been seriously damaged. We have council websites full of innaccuracies fed by the hysteria. Oxfordshire has tried to appoint someone in each parish to exterminate it from roadsides where the science clearly shows it is no problem and from where it is unlikely to spread. In effect they have appointed a parish habitat destroyer.

We even have MPS signing an early day motion full of inaccurate information

Kawczynski, Daniel
That this House notes the duty of the Highways Agency to effectively remove ragwort from the side of roads under its care; further notes that ragwort is poisonous to horses and spreads quickly if not checked; further notes that around Shrewsbury the Highways Agency is not fulfilling its responsibility to remove ragwort, leading to a huge spread of this dangerous weed; and urges the Highways Agency to urgently sort out this problem during August.

There is no responsibility placed by statute law on the Highways Agency to "effectively remove ragwort from the side of roads under its care". It is poisonous to animals but poisoning is very rare. It does not spread quickly if unchecked. In fact its seeds do not spread more than a matter of metres. We know this because of research and we also know that it is not increasing in Britain.

So we have Members of Parliament, no less, encouraging habitat damage as a result of a pseudoscientific campaign full of falsehoods.

Incidentally, and I do not want to appear too harsh, if it were the case that talking up a problem on websites like this had no effect on conservation. It would also be the case that all the billions of pounds spent on advertising by companies selling things would be wasted. Every piece of advertising whether by people fueling ragwort hysteria on sites like this or by taking up the merits of traded products has an effect.

I appeal to people to help combat Ragwort Hystera.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Swallowtail

The issue affects nearly every nature reserve in Britain. There are a number of rare and endangered wildlife species afffected and at least one SSSI has been seriously damaged. We have council websites full of innaccuracies fed by the hysteria. Oxfordshire has tried to appoint someone in each parish to exterminate it from roadsides where the science clearly shows it is no problem and from where it is unlikely to spread. In effect they have appointed a parish habitat destroyer.

We even have MPS signing an early day motion full of inaccurate information


There is no responsibility placed by statute law on the Highways Agency to "effectively remove ragwort from the side of roads under its care". It is poisonous to animals but poisoning is very rare. It does not spread quickly if unchecked. In fact its seeds do not spread more than a matter of metres. We know this because of research and we also know that it is not increasing in Britain.

So we have Members of Parliament, no less, encouraging habitat damage as a result of a pseudoscientific campaign full of falsehoods.

Incidentally, and I do not want to appear too harsh, if it were the case that talking up a problem on websites like this had no effect on conservation. It would also be the case that all the billions of pounds spent on advertising by companies selling things would be wasted. Every piece of advertising whether by people fueling ragwort hysteria on sites like this or by taking up the merits of traded products has an effect.

I appeal to people to help combat Ragwort Hystera.

I cant be bothered to get drawn into a long drawn out discussion of this - particularly as it has been discussed several times before.

However I will say this

a) most nature reserves are looked after by a highly skilled and very knowledgable wardening team - it is likely therefore that they not only know about this issue but are able to weigh all the factors and make an informed decision - and the chances of any SSSI being significantly damaged by the removal of ragwort is neglible in any case.

b) Highway authorities do have a duty of care to both users and neigbours - this does place a responsibility on them to deal effectively with any invasive weed. (and ragwort does spread if not controlled , it seeds only go a matter of meters true but this can be meters into a haymeadow from a roadside verge - and ragwort poisoning in hay is only rare because hay contaminated with ragwort isnt saleable)

and

c) If you belive WAB is contribuiting to harm by having these discuission I'd tend to suggest you take it up with stu. My personal feeling is that wab is actually detracting from the "hysteria" by providing a platform for this debate

I would also appeal to everyone to combat any "ragwort hysteria" but to first consider all the facts including the fact that a deal of the hysteria seems to be in regard of the supposed risks posed by its control.

[pressld2]

My only experience is at Crossness where I have done some voluntary ragwort pulling under the guidance of the reserve warden. I certainly wouldn't describe what goes on at Crossness as "hysteria" - the aim is very much control and not eradication. There is plenty of ragwort on the reserve which is left well alone and I'm very glad about that as it lets me get shots like this one...



But we also have areas that are grazed and, exactly as eeyore says, those areas need to be kept reasonably ragwort free or the tenants will, rightly or wrongly, move their horses elsewhere. So every year or two we clear any ragwort that has spread from the uncontrolled areas into the grazing areas.

Dave P.