The Whole Picture

[Earth Hart]

Please forgive me if I've posted this before, I've had a look & can't see it anywhere, maybe I need glasses.

The Whole Picture


When I'm moving around the on-line forums of Environmental, Wildlife, Climate Change & Earth Sciences websites, I find folks analysing a particular theme, and never looking at the whole picture. How everything is connected. You may think this is strange but I often visit Stock Exchange sites, to see how global currencies are doing, checking the price of wheat & rice, oil & fertilizer, how's the Yen behaving with the $, all because I'm interested in Earth & Her environments. And I like to know what's making it all work. Or not.

Keeping my eyes & ears open to conflicts around the world. How they are being used by the adversaries on the media & political stage. In all of these conflicts there is starvation & lack of fresh water, & it's going to get worse. For a long time now, I've been saying that with Climate Change there'll be more & more conflicts over food & water.

With food prices rising dramatically around the world because of failed harvests & grain being grown for biofuel & not food, we will see the poor suffer even more than they do now, and with rainfall patterns changing, more drought & floods, making food production even harder for the poor. Now, at long last, the US Intelligence Agencies have done a major assessment on Climate Change, and how it will effect US security. They say that action has to be taken or the security of the USA will be put under severe pressure, as nations around the globe become unstable because of conflicts & environmental disasters. It's a pity no one listened in the '80s, when this was first put forward to the governments of the world. At the time the US government said it wasn't a problem for them. Some joke. A case of “I'm alright Jack”.

Now they're not all right and they know it, but will they get their fingers & heads out & act now, because if they don't, the rest of the world won't either. Sadly, we need the US to take the lead in really cutting back on CO2 emissions & changing their energy production & policies away from fossil fuels. As I've said before, sod the shareholders it's the common people that count, for without their buying power profits will fall.

It is up to us, the Common People, to bring about the change. Hit them were it hurts, their profits. Look at how you shop. Where does the product come, is it local, national, or does it come from half way round the world. Use energy-saving light bulbs & other white goods, sod the dish-washer, you've got hands, do it yourself or get the kids to do it. When not in use, switch off all appliances, don't leave them on stand-by. Every little thing you can do, matters. In journals before, I have mentioned Prof. Eugene Odum, & my meeting with him. Gods rest him. His quote, when being interviewed by a US PBS station journalist who asked him what was the worse case scenario with regards the environment, was...

“He Who Could Do Little, Did NOTHING.”

[Jez]

Holy moly I just watched the zeitgeist movie on Youtube. What an awakening to what is actually going on in the world today, I think everyone should watch this!!

[Hedge Witch]

Well said, Earth Hart. We do all we can in our house. We may have done little, but we've done SOMETHING.

Jez - can you post the link?

[Jez]

YouTube - Zeitgeist - The Movie - 1 of 13 (Introduction)

YouTube - Zeitgeist - The Movie - 2 of 13 (Part 1 of 3 on Religion)

& so on.

[PMG]

Hmmmm....... I've spent the best part of today watching the whole thing and diverting off onto other parts of the debate........... its a frightening subject and it frightens me more to realise that what I suspected happens but could not explain in words - just a vague feeling of wrongness - is actually spot on - particularly with regard to money......... and making it out of thin air or as is now the case making it in computers - just like this one by typing some figures in - any figures and passing it round - astounding

I've particularly watched film and comment on 9/11 too and stealed myself to do it and it also bears thinking about........

I'm not saying that I swallow or believe everything I see, hear or read anymore and I'm not saying that the things I've watched today are not the product of a different kind of indoctrination but its worth dipping into and thinking about ...............

Pauline

[ellen h]

Originally Posted by Jez

Holy moly I just watched the zeitgeist movie on Youtube. What an awakening to what is actually going on in the world today, I think everyone should watch this!!

Agree with you there!
Very thought provoking.....
ellen

[pressld2]

You make some interesting points, Earth Hart, but there are a couple of things I'd like to take issue with...

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

As I've said before, sod the shareholders it's the common people that count

The common people ARE the shareholders. It's not an "us and them" situation, it's just us. This was true even before Thatcherism and the "share-owning democracy". By far the biggest owners of shares are pension funds, banks and insurance companies, and government (both local and national). So anyone with a pension, anyone with an insurance policy, anyone with any savings of any sort (except stuffed under the matress!) and anyone who pays tax IS a shareholder. We all benefit from a healthy economy and we all suffer from an unhealthy one. It's true that some people, mainly the ones who own shares directly, benefit more than others in the good times but they also tend to suffer more in the bad times. It all evens out in the end.

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

sod the dish-washer, you've got hands, do it yourself or get the kids to do it.

That's just plain bad advice. When used properly, i.e. only run when full which is what I do, a dishwasher uses less clean water, less energy and less detergent than washing up by hand.

Dave P.

[badgerwatcher]

As a family who recycle everything, we notice that we use quite a lot of water washing out dog food cans and plastic trays and bottles, so using one resource to save another. Is recycling just a salve to make us feel better?
When I was young, many many years ago, we shopped at butcher's and meat was wrapped in a piece of paper, as was fish from the fishmonger, the grocer wrapped cheese in greaseproof paper, put eggs into the boxes we took back from last week, children took bottles back to the shop to get the coppers for returning them, we took jugs for some things. Vegetables were bought from a greengrocer, and all put into the shopping bags you took with you, muddiest things first.
We respected everything we bought, meat bones were made into soups, kitchen scraps were given to the 'pig-man' or put on the compost heap, even to the dog.
I could go on, I know everyone's sighing, but THAT's what we ought to be doing, instead of putting out bags and bags of rubbish, all neatly sorted into different bags, scrubbed clean.
AND we didn't have disposeable nappies for our babies.
Yes, I know, I'll shut up now.

[Jez]

Originally Posted by badgerwatcher

As a family who recycle everything, we notice that we use quite a lot of water washing out dog food cans and plastic trays and bottles, so using one resource to save another. Is recycling just a salve to make us feel better?
When I was young, many many years ago, we shopped at butcher's and meat was wrapped in a piece of paper, as was fish from the fishmonger, the grocer wrapped cheese in greaseproof paper, put eggs into the boxes we took back from last week, children took bottles back to the shop to get the coppers for returning them, we took jugs for some things. Vegetables were bought from a greengrocer, and all put into the shopping bags you took with you, muddiest things first.
We respected everything we bought, meat bones were made into soups, kitchen scraps were given to the 'pig-man' or put on the compost heap, even to the dog.
I could go on, I know everyone's sighing, but THAT's what we ought to be doing, instead of putting out bags and bags of rubbish, all neatly sorted into different bags, scrubbed clean.
AND we didn't have disposeable nappies for our babies.
Yes, I know, I'll shut up now.

Not sighing at all badgerwatcher! After watching Zeitgeist, I'm left wondering how self sufficient I can be. If alls true, the new world order wouldn't want that.

[svenrufus]

Originally Posted by pressld2

That's just plain bad advice. When used properly, i.e. only run when full which is what I do, a dishwasher uses less clean water, less energy and less detergent than washing up by hand.

This is a bit of an urban myth, the research that came to this conclusion and is widely quoted was done by Bonn university sponsored by..... dishwasher manufacturers!

One key assumption it is based on includes doing three hand washes a day (I do one every day or two), and running a full machine (which many peple don't).

It fails to take into account the embedded energy in extracting the materials to make a dishwasher, its fabrication, transport and disposal. It doesn't take into account the more damaging environmental problems caused by the majority of dishwasher detergents. It doesn't take into account that the water in a dishwasher is heated to much higher temperatures that I would use in a hand wash, so energy use is more comprable than assumed.

The other thing that has a big impact is the way people use things - not jsut running a load half full, but stuff like rinsing stuff before it goes in, and bad stacking leading to stuff coming out dirty and needing rewashing. All these issues need to be factored in for a real world like for like comparison. They weren't so the validity of the findings is highly doubtful to say the least. I am not saying the result was wrong, as there are other issues about the way people do hand washing that need factoring in, but there is no way of knowing on the basis of the research that has been done which is best.

However, this is all a bit of a distraction from the issues that Earth Hart raised at the start of this thread, looking at a holistic vision of the world and the way we live in it. What dishwashers are about, notwithstanding the argument over whether they are better or worse than handwashing, is the drive towards a consumer based society, increasing growth, increasing demands on our environment that eventually it won't be able to support. Hand washing (as a symbol of ones approach to life) is more about slowing down, making less demands of the world around us, dealing with our own messes rather than wanting someone else to sort out the problems we create. Its about taking responsibility, which, with the way things are now, is what we all need to prioritise.

[PMG]

Originally Posted by Jez

Not sighing at all badgerwatcher! After watching Zeitgeist, I'm left wondering how self sufficient I can be. If alls true, the new world order wouldn't want that.

Hmmm again from me - I've watched some more and delved a little more and I'm undeniably interested in what I've seen - BUT - I still maintain a good dollop of scepticism - for all things - I keep an open mind or maybe that should be duel mind - I will take something at face value until proven different because why would anyone lie to me ......... and the answer to that is cos they want me to do something or think a certain way in order to achieve something............ and words are the easiest things in the world to manipulate - you can make anything sound any way you want if you are clever enough with words and have a pursuasive personality........

And as has been pointed out to me on numerous occasions - the internet is unregulated and anyone can put anything they like on it - as in sky blue pink with yellow dots! After watching zeitgeist tho - particularly the section on media and television and keeping a diet of pulp entertainment going to salve the bored masses and stop folks from thinking straight or from doing anything creative or useful ............ Hmmmmm..........

The thing that folks are agreed on is that we do need to live in a more sustainable way..............

Pauline

[pressld2]

Originally Posted by pressld2

That's just plain bad advice.

In light of Sven's post I'd like to withdraw that comment. I apologise, I didn't realise that there was any dispute about dishwashers being greener than washing up by hand.

Just goes to show how hard it is to be green when there's so much conflicting advice around and so many experts disagreeing with each other.

Dave P.

[PMG]

Originally Posted by PMG

Hmmm again from me - I've watched some more and delved a little more and I'm undeniably interested in what I've seen - BUT - I still maintain a good dollop of scepticism - for all things - I keep an open mind or maybe that should be duel mind - I will take something at face value until proven different because why would anyone lie to me ......... and the answer to that is cos they want me to do something or think a certain way in order to achieve something............ and words are the easiest things in the world to manipulate - you can make anything sound any way you want if you are clever enough with words and have a pursuasive personality........

And as has been pointed out to me on numerous occasions - the internet is unregulated and anyone can put anything they like on it - as in sky blue pink with yellow dots! After watching zeitgeist tho - particularly the section on media and television and keeping a diet of pulp entertainment going to salve the bored masses and stop folks from thinking straight or from doing anything creative or useful ............ Hmmmmm..........

The thing that folks are agreed on is that we do need to live in a more sustainable way..............

Pauline

And I'm still saying Hmmm......... having read quite a bit more today on and off - I've looked at several sites claiming to debunk and explain if all away as lies - its made interesting reading and I shall continue to sift and weigh!

Pauline

[Jez]

For the government to want a new Identity lock, soon after 911, gives the ole Egyptian 'eye', we want your eyes attitude! I also came across a bit of film footage on what looks like a new Auschwitz under construction in America ( I'm also sifting)? I came across that footage before I came across zeitgeist. Couldn't find the footage today seems like it's been removed? Anyway no ID card for me........we don't need spam!!!! Mung beans for 1 are far better for your well being especially from sprouts

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Jez

For the government to want a new Identity lock, soon after 911, gives the ole Egyptian 'eye', we want your eyes attitude! I also came across a bit of film footage on what looks like a new Auschwitz under construction in America ( I'm also sifting)? I came across that footage before I came across zeitgeist. Couldn't find the footage today seems like it's been removed? Anyway no ID card for me..

I'm sorry jez but this is errant conspiracy theory rubbish, a new auschwitz being built in america , come on get real

given that a prison is a prison is a prison - i would suspect that the footage you have seen is of.... a prison. What made the concentration camps so bad was what was done there, the construction itself was no different (give or take a few machine guns) to any other wired compound.

what i always have to ask about the consipracy theorists is why if they are really living in a nacsent police state they are able to freely expound such on the interweb without being "disapeared". I strongly doubt the sicherdenheist wold have let you get away with that had the inenet existed in 1930s germany

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I'm sorry jez but this is errant conspiracy theory rubbish, a new auschwitz being built in america , come on get real

given that a prison is a prison is a prison - i would suspect that the footage you have seen is of.... a prison. What made the concentration camps so bad was what was done there, the construction itself was no different (give or take a few machine guns) to any other wired compound.

what i always have to ask about the consipracy theorists is why if they are really living in a nacsent police state they are able to freely expound such on the interweb without being "disapeared". I strongly doubt the sicherdenheist wold have let you get away with that had the inenet existed in 1930s germany

Added tact eh Eeyore! The picture of it does look very much like auchwitz mearly a prison or not. Also if you look into the auchwitz's they were built and designed as killing houses - with built in gas chambers and cremation ovens. I watched many a factual programme on them with an old family friend whose family died in one.

As for internet and freedom - they may not have banned it or may not - there is a saying 'know your enemy'. So, the internet could be/is being bugged to gain information perhaps? Sorry i have a hangover - hope this bit makes sense?!

What I didn't realise, until Jez came back with news of it last night, was the terror attacks in Mumbai and the knock on effect it's having on India and Pakistan. We have no telly here..or radio - the reception is so bad there is little point and by and large it's not missed but.... Maybe if we stopped all form of media then we would stop these attacks..and yes i know that will never happen because we're human and as such nosey so and so's!

[Jez]

I'm quite concerned about goings on in Mumbai atm as I have a friend there and friends and family are very concerned as we can't get hold of him. Scott is just passing though on a short stop before he becomes a resident in Australia. I saw him 2 weeks back as he had been doing some work for us & I hope he's ok & can let us all know!

Back in 89 we got down to this:-

YouTube - You Must Learn-KRS 1

Before the 16th parallel was torn. This is for you Scott!

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Added tact eh Eeyore! The picture of it does look very much like auchwitz mearly a prison or not. Also if you look into the auchwitz's they were built and designed as killing houses - with built in gas chambers and cremation ovens. I watched many a factual programme on them with an old family friend whose family died in one.

added tact indeed - without it i might have been much more brutal in debunking this.... ahh... stuff.

I fully acknowledge the full horror of the holocaust and what was done at solibor, belsen, auschwitz, treblinka etc but to suggest that they are building new straffelagers in america is just too ridiculous for words (and to think that if they were they would be careless enough to let pics of them get on the internet is even more so).

My point was that there is a horrendous ammount of dodgy information on the internet and to take it at face value without critical analysis is unwise to say the least.

[Dan Salter]

Can someone fill me in what the main jyst of this Zeitgeist flick is about? im very curious but as im at college right now i cant go watch....

Im a bit behind with enviro films as i only just watched an inconveniant truth last week but must admit i thought it was great (although i suspect i shall now be told a million reasons why its all rubbish or something).

There is another one called 11th Hour which is something to do with Leonard de caterpillar blokey from films.....anyone seen that one?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

Can someone fill me in what the main jyst of this Zeitgeist flick is about? im very curious but as im at college right now i cant go watch....

Im a bit behind with enviro films as i only just watched an inconveniant truth last week but must admit i thought it was great (although i suspect i shall now be told a million reasons why its all rubbish or something).

There is another one called 11th Hour which is something to do with Leonard de caterpillar blokey from films.....anyone seen that one?

Well I just watched the intro which has the appearance of a badly made music video and the general gist that war is a bad thing ( this is news ? ) and switched off after a minuite or two of the second one which was a deeply patronising explanation of what religion is..... I can't say that these inspire me to watch the other 11 and it is difficult to see what they add to the debate.

according to reviews on the web the general gist is that 1) Christianity is rehashed pagan sunworship used to control the masses, 2) that 9/11 etc are part of an international global conspiracy, and 3) that ever since WW1 the rich and powerful have been manufacturing wars and financial collapses in order to become more rich and powerful.

1) I'm not going to comment on as the site rules say dont do religion here, 2) is just plain silly, and 3) there may be a degree of truth in - however what any of these have to do with wildlife or indeed EH's original post is beyond me.

[PMG]

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

Can someone fill me in what the main jyst of this Zeitgeist flick is about? im very curious but as im at college right now i cant go watch....

Im a bit behind with enviro films as i only just watched an inconveniant truth last week but must admit i thought it was great (although i suspect i shall now be told a million reasons why its all rubbish or something).

There is another one called 11th Hour which is something to do with Leonard de caterpillar blokey from films.....anyone seen that one?

Its an indictment of human nature through the ages - or to put it another way - how the wrong people always end up in power - and the bigger the prize at the end - the more wrong these people are prepared to be - and the prize is power apparently for the big players - not neccessarily money - tho money is needed to corrupt - while the masses are having their short attention spans diverted by the white noise of media ......... and their fears calmed by alcohol, drugs and sex .............

How am I doing? Am I way off? Is the film loaded with subliminal messages? Have I been brainwashed? Hmmmmmm?

Pauline

Btw I've watched more than the intro and gone off and found other stuff to look at and think about. Its a little theatrical but its a film and is meant to make a point. I've also listened to the radio interviews with its maker Peter Joseph, watched interviews with the engineers who designed and built the twin towers (there's still a big question as to why the buildings came down in 11 seconds - same speed as a demolition, why the steel core was not left standing) also the plane in the Pentagon the same day - of which no trace was found??

And yes I apologise to Earth Heart - I have hijacked this thread without realising it and if the mods want to remove it to someplace else or altogether - its fine with me.

[Dan Salter]

Alcohol drugs and sex? now your talking!! my kind of movie PMG !

but i hear you eeyore.....sounds a bit sketchy to me...ill have a quick looksie tonight .

Cheers folks