Very interesting facts

[STYRBJORN]

Originally Posted by John_M

You have obviously never spent any time at sea!

65 feet up the mainmast trying to free the jammed mainsail in an 80 knot wind round Cape Horn and you wouldn't talk about winds on land. Trust me. Been there.

Ric

[animartco]

You ARE a saint Mike! Yes ta for the info I've only read first chapter so far but it says that wind if it is all built on schedule would supply as much power as the planned nuclear program. I seem to remember some people saying it wouldn't? Of course it doesn't say what happens if the wind stops blowing although, the planet does seem to be getting windier as it warms up. Is this an expected effect?
Of onshore. Well I did know about vortices etc. That's why I suggested a hillside. I haven't been around Britian much but, I remember that in stafford there is a gentle undulation to much of the land, and lots of large bare fields which means you can select a hillside with flat smooth land all around and yet have a low level uninterrupted horizon to the West. I'm sure there must be lots of such places in Britain. When people think of onshore they tend to think of turbines cropping up in beauty spots. These would be unsuitable because they usually involve pointed hills and rocky outcrops and lots of trees. There is no reason why a whole array of turbines shouldn't be built on farms and the farms stilll retain ninety percent of their productivity; is there?
One thing the wind people do need to do is to produce some specialized turbines that work in a gale and produce enough mechanical power to pump water uphill to generate on still days.
Of the Wave Hub. They did show something sticking out of the water which looked as if it included a linear generator. It had a top like a large cotton reel? Looked like a lift and drop device to me. What was it then?
Wondering Gillian

[Lancashire Lad]

Originally Posted by animartco

....I've only read first chapter so far but it says that wind if it is all built on schedule would supply as much power as the planned nuclear program. I seem to remember some people saying it wouldn't?....

You are quoting out of context. - You need to read the chapters on Wind! - which basically say that we would have to cover the entire country in wind turbines, (which the book also says is entirely impractical), to produce enough electricity to go anywhere near meeting demand!.

Originally Posted by animartco

....Of the Wave Hub. They did show something sticking out of the water which looked as if it included a linear generator. It had a top like a large cotton reel? Looked like a lift and drop device to me. What was it then?....

The thing shown in the animation was the Power Buoy - but as I say, it is only an animation, and an animation of a prototype proposal at that. So it's pointless trying to read anything into it as far as the practicality or potential generating capacity of the eventual full scale commercial product.

Regards,
Mike.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by animartco

. There is no reason why a whole array of turbines shouldn't be built on farms and the farms stilll retain ninety percent of their productivity; is there?

well i doubt that the average farmer would welcome the huge lumps on concrete these things need to be embedded in to keep them stable in their feilds, or the access roads for the engineers to maintain them (not to mention the construction trafficv needed in the building phase)

Originally Posted by animartco

One thing the wind people do need to do is to produce some specialized turbines that work in a gale and produce enough mechanical power to pump water uphill to generate on still days.

if you are talking about building them on expanses of flat farmland what water are they suposed to pump, and up what hill ? - also you need to checkout the figures for pumped storage and the ammount that would be needed to power the grid on still days

[animartco]

Originally Posted by eeyore

well i doubt that the average farmer would welcome the huge lumps on concrete these things need to be embedded in to keep them stable in their feilds, or the access roads for the engineers to maintain them (not to mention the construction trafficv needed in the building phase)



if you are talking about building them on expanses of flat farmland what water are they suposed to pump, and up what hill ? - also you need to checkout the figures for pumped storage and the ammount that would be needed to power the grid on still days

Eeyore the average farmer would be delighted!!! I've just got a cheque for eleven pounds for one little telegraph post! They'd get an enormous amount of wayleave for them. And I did say ninety percent of productivity. Is a bit more bother to steer round them when ploughing, but not a lot of land would be lost.
The specialist turbines would be sited in areas with flat hilltops which could be turned into reserviours, with another reservior at the bottom These would double as catchment reserviours for the waterboard. You get the picture?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by animartco

Eeyore the average farmer would be delighted!!! I've just got a cheque for eleven pounds for one little telegraph post! They'd get an enormous amount of wayleave for them. And I did say ninety percent of productivity. Is a bit more bother to steer round them when ploughing, but not a lot of land would be lost.
The specialist turbines would be sited in areas with flat hilltops which could be turned into reserviours, with another reservior at the bottom These would double as catchment reserviours for the waterboard. You get the picture?

i get the picture just fine - but the picture i get is that you havent got any idea what you are talking about.

i) for starters have you any conception of the size of the foundation it takes to keep a wind turbine upright - clearly not , as its not a case of simply steering round it when ploughing, these things are huge and if you plonk any number in a feild there will be no agricultural productivity (well okay you could graze sheep, but you are talking about siting these on flat farmland in key arable areas) so the farmers might be delighted with the compensation pay out , but the ability to produce food would be totally compromised.

ii) secondly there is no need for a special turbine for pumped storage - you just take the excess production (if any) from normal grid generation and use electric pumps to pump the water - this means the turbines dont have to be in the same area of the country as the PS

iii) However your plans for pumped storage are laughable - "areas with flat hill tops that could ber turned into reservoirs" - leaving aside the dearth of these mythical sites. do you have any idea of the scale of the engineering needed to build a reservoir on a hilltop ? or for that matter of the ammount of water that would be needed to power the grid in the absence of other generation.

and lastly

iv) "The resevoirs at the foot could double as cachement reserrvoirs for water companies" umm no they couldnt because the water would be needed for the pumped storage and thus couldnt be drawn off for other purposes.

Like mike said if you want your ideas to be taken seriously go away and do some research so you at least have some grounding in what you are talking about, as at the moment your proposal ios no more realistic than a fairy story (and less well thought out than most)

[animartco]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

You would try the patience of a saint!

I fully agree that the woman in the video exposed herself as something of a numpty. Much better to have simply said that she didn't know what it was than to make a fool of herself by making things up. - "It will help with marine life and bring in more surfing opportunity"
However, back to your comments: -
The wave hub does not produce electricity, it is purely a means of connecting the electricity generating prototypes under test back to the control room. i.e. it is just like a giant underwater 4-way trailing socket.

The prototype mentioned in the video, is the "Power Buoy", which is only shown as a graphics animation, so you have no idea how large or small it might be. - And quite obviously, as for the majority of prototype tests, the unit would not be anywhere near the sizes that would subsequently be built as commercially viable generators.

As for your comment that these things would never be intended to work by the energy moguls, and that they are only being constructed as a means of finding work for the locally unemployed - words fail me!
You really do have a crazy mixed up version in your head of how the world of business, commerce and economics operates.

For reasons of being influenced by land formations, vortices etc. etc. no it isn't.

With the greatest of respect, please do yourself a favour and do a little bit of research - which is what I keep suggesting.

If you choose to read nothing else, then make a point of going to this website and thoroughly reading all of the major chapters: -
David MacKay FRS: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air: Contents
You will become much more enlightened as a result.

Regards,
Mike.

Hi again Mike. Thought I'd clarify my Crazy mixed up idea about business and commerce. I did do a few sessions at the LSE and found them very interesting. Basically industry NEVER bothers with anything that is cheap however good it is. Whether it is beneficial or harmful efficient or inefficient does not enter into their calculations, which are basically How big a return can I get on this investment and how quickly? If you start with a tiny figure invested in a small enterprise, by all the laws of industry you would never get a return as quickly as for an investment in a large enterprise, and you can't get much larger than Nuclear!

[Lancashire Lad]

Originally Posted by animartco

Hi again Mike. Thought I'd clarify my Crazy mixed up idea about business and commerce. I did do a few sessions at the LSE and found them very interesting. Basically industry NEVER bothers with anything that is cheap however good it is. Whether it is beneficial or harmful efficient or inefficient does not enter into their calculations, which are basically How big a return can I get on this investment and how quickly? If you start with a tiny figure invested in a small enterprise, by all the laws of industry you would never get a return as quickly as for an investment in a large enterprise, and you can't get much larger than Nuclear!

Thanks for that. You have clarified very succinctly, that your thoughts are indeed as I thought. - Crazy and mixed up!

If that is what they really said, rather than your interpretation of what they said, then remind me never to take any notice of the LSE!

The number one rule of commerce is make it cheap and sell it expensive.
Any enterprise which is able to follow that rule will make much more profit than the ones which cannot.

No further comment from me

Regards,
Mike.

[animartco]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

Thanks for that. You have clarified very succinctly, that your thoughts are indeed as I thought. - Crazy and mixed up!

If that is what they really said, rather than your interpretation of what they said, then remind me never to take any notice of the LSE!

The number one rule of commerce is make it cheap and sell it expensive.
Any enterprise which is able to follow that rule will make much more profit than the ones which cannot.

No further comment from me

Regards,
Mike.

no that's the rule of genuine honest commerce MIke Big business involving bankers as most of it does, works by different rules entirely.