Warm fusion = free clean energy!

[Meta menardi]

P'raps it's like homeopathy, it remembers being different?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by pressld2

Ooh, nice one Mike!

"The electron density of the bond donor atom-hydrogen is shifted to the donor atom, thus a positive charge is induced on the hydrogen atom. This partial charge interacts with the electronic cloud of the acceptor atom."

So it's not forming either an ionic or a covalent bond with the acceptor atom but is simply interacting with it electrically. Very interesting!

But before anyone gets carried away and thinks this proves anything with regard to HHO remember that Mike was playing Devil's advocate! These bifurcated bonds are happening in protein side chains and not in simple molecules made up of one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms.

Dave P.

nice - its only a matter of time before someone adds that theory to the websites promoting the idea of HHO as an entity (classic snake oil salesmanship - take a revolutionary theory which is confusing to the layperson and link it to your product in a hazy way and claim it proves your product)

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dave5xe

The isomer form HHO has two hydrogens bonded in series with an oxygen atom capped to one hydrogen all in a line. I hope that this helps,
Regards, David

I'm confused as you originally said the above - but you are now saying the below

Originally Posted by Dave5xe

True, a gas called HHO does not exist

so are you saying it exists bonded like H-H-O and you can prove this (which would be a revolutionary discovery as it would turn the whole ionic bonding theory and our understanding of the periodic table on its head - and probably win you a nobel prize) , or are you actually now saying (as i have been saying all along) that HHO does not exist and what people are refering to as HHO is merely a mixture of H2 and O2 (and thus that you were wrong on page 1) ?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Doggle Avaddit

Many people have postulated a hypothesis, that the products from the electrolysis of water are not simply a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen as we currently understand it. What generally happens with a new hypothesis, is that experiments are done to produce observations that either support or disprove the hypothesis.

thats fair enough - but science would not accept the new hypothesis as being anything other than a hypothesis until there was some proof - the fact that no (at least no credibly peer reviewed) experiments have been done to prove that H-H-O is a practical proposition would tend to suggest that it isnt.

As I said to daveexe above were it possible to prove that the hydrogen ion is capable of making more than one bond , this would be earth shaking as it would call into doubt the whole understanding of ionic bonding and the periodic table as we know it.

And in terms of experiments to prove that the electrolysis of water does produce hydrogen and oxygen not the mythical HHO these are very easy and are done in schools across the country every year - basically you just electrolyse some water and collect the gasses that result at each electrode - these are demonstrably hydrogen and oxygen and are also demonstrably different - If HHO really existed one would expect the gas collected at both electrodes to be the same

if you dont believe me you can do the experiment youself - all you need is a glass bowl or trough, two copper rods, a car battery and some wire, and two test tubes !

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by eeyore

thats fair enough - but science would not accept the new hypothesis as being anything other than a hypothesis until there was some proof - the fact that no (at least no credibly peer reviewed) experiments have been done to prove that H-H-O is a practical proposition would tend to suggest that it isnt.

No, all that shows, as you say, is that no credible experiments have been done. Or at least no credible experiments have released any data to the public domain that might support the hypothesis.
How can a total lack of experimental data (from no experiments) suggest anything at all?

Nice try, but incorrect.




And in terms of experiments to prove that the electrolysis of water does produce hydrogen and oxygen not the mythical HHO these are very easy and are done in schools across the country every year - basically you just electrolyse some water and collect the gasses that result at each electrode - these are demonstrably hydrogen and oxygen and are also demonstrably different - If HHO really existed one would expect the gas collected at both electrodes to be the same

if you dont believe me you can do the experiment youself - all you need is a glass bowl or trough, two copper rods, a car battery and some wire, and two test tubes !

I think you are completely misunderstanding what HHO is purported to be.

You seem from the above to think that HHO is produced at each electrode.
The suggestion actually is, that the gases from each electrode (Hydrogen from one and Oxygen from the other) are collected and mixed within the same reaction chamber more or less at the time of production. The resultant mixture is called HHO.

[thunder]

Originally Posted by Doggle Avaddit

I think you are completely misunderstanding what HHO is purported to be.

You seem from the above to think that HHO is produced at each electrode.
The suggestion actually is, that the gases from each electrode (Hydrogen from one and Oxygen from the other) are collected and mixed within the same reaction chamber more or less at the time of production. The resultant mixture is called HHO.

This is probably where the whole silly confusion starts. The mixture of the two gases produced by the electrolysis of water is just that - a mixture, of H2 and O2, nothing else.

henrya

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Doggle Avaddit

I think you are completely misunderstanding what HHO is purported to be.

You seem from the above to think that HHO is produced at each electrode.
The suggestion actually is, that the gases from each electrode (Hydrogen from one and Oxygen from the other) are collected and mixed within the same reaction chamber more or less at the time of production. The resultant mixture is called HHO.

umm , no it appears to be you that is misunderstanding what HHO is purported to be. way back on page one Davexe defined it thus

Originally Posted by Dave5xe

Sorry Eeyore but the answer to your question is a bit long winded, HHO and H2O are not the same thing. In a H2O (water) molecule the hydrogen atoms are attached to the central oxygen atom and both are at about a 104 degree angle. The isomer form HHO has two hydrogens bonded in series with an oxygen atom capped to one hydrogen all in a line. I hope that this helps,
Regards, David

ie HHO aka browns gas is purported to be a new isomer form of h2o where the two hydrogens are bonded in series - which has never been shown to be possible,

and as henry said a mixture of H2 and O2 is just that a mixture of H2 and O2, it is a mixture not a compound and does not therefore have a chemical formula at all - let alone be described by the formula HHO.

The issue of whether you can inject a mixture of H2 and O2 into your car engine to improve performance is a different question, and one which is obfusicated by the incorect use of the term HHO, my feeling on that is that it might be possible but that given the autoexplosive nature of such a mixture in some circumstances it would make more sense to forget the oxygen and just inject the hydrogen.

and the question of whether such a system can generate more energy than you would get just from burning the petrol (including the power drawn off for electrolysis) is yet another seperate question.

[Dave5xe]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I'm confused as you originally said the above - but you are now saying the below



so are you saying it exists bonded like H-H-O and you can prove this (which would be a revolutionary discovery as it would turn the whole ionic bonding theory and our understanding of the periodic table on its head - and probably win you a nobel prize) , or are you actually now saying (as i have been saying all along) that HHO does not exist and what people are refering to as HHO is merely a mixture of H2 and O2 (and thus that you were wrong on page 1) ?

Sorry, HHO as an item does not exist and I was wrong to ever indicate that it did

However, Hydrogen and Oxygen do exist and using them in any internal combustion engine via an HHO (so named by its users ) system is good for the planet

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dave5xe

However, Hydrogen and Oxygen do exist and using them in any internal combustion engine via an HHO (so named by its users ) system is good for the planet ....

.... but only if the increase in energy output derived by the injection of H2 and O2 is greater than the increase in energy input required by drawing off current to electrolyse the water and run the injection system

I remain unconvinced that this is so , but i'm open to persuasion if there is any actual proof in terms of experiments and test data, rather than unsubstantiated annecdotes

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by eeyore

.... but only if the increase in energy output derived by the injection of H2 and O2 is greater than the increase in energy input required by drawing off current to electrolyse the water and run the injection system

I remain unconvinced that this is so , but i'm open to persuasion if there is any actual proof in terms of experiments and test data, rather than unsubstantiated annecdotes

There is another side to this, as Dave has always been saying. Notably that injection of H & O alters the amount and type of pollutants exhausted. This actually has the potential to be a very good thing.


Unfortunately there is no verifiable data on this either.

Again, this is something you might expect to be easily verifiable, with definitive experiments having been done.


Perhaps the whole subject is just too contoversial for any Scientist to risk their career on it.