HHO Gas Cars

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Dave5xe

OK, Jim, as you know, I have the results from the MOT stations gas analyser that show a small increase in CO2 and a huge decrease in particulate and toxic pollutants.
I have already explained about the extra torque that lets me use a higher gear at low speeds.
The Capri has been souped-up, it has the Lotus Cortina pre-crossflow block bored out to 1640cc with a race cam and head. Dcoe40 Webbers with a four branch and custom exhaust. Electric fan and a 400volt capacity discharge unit. Special fuel pump and distributor, 2000E gearbox and the list goes on and on.
So I have no standard MPG or 0 to 60 figures to work with but I will try to get you some results next summer and will post them,
Kind regards,
David

Yeah well, it was always said that if you just oil the door locks it make the car go better!
;^)

Jm

[pressld2]

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

Yeah well, it was always said that if you just oil the door locks it make the car go better!
;^)

Jm

That's an urban myth, Jim. You have to empty the ashtrays too!

Dave P.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by gonrod

The fact is that the internal combustion engines used in our cars are monstrously fuel inneficient. They have a maximum theoretical efficiency of around 70%, but in practice operate at closer to 20%-25%.

Hmm, IIRC from my thermodynamics <mumble, mumble> years ago, the theoretical eficiency of the Carnot Cycle is something just over 30%. There's not many machines with efficiencies of around 70% - a transformer springs to mind, but it's higher.

The shock wave created by instant detonation would crack the block.

I assume you're talking 'knocking' or 'pinking' here - a fairly common feature of older engines using low octane fuel and often initiated by attempting to accelerate in too high a gear. Prolonged pinking usually resulted in piston damage. I've not heard of it cracking a block.

When I worked on gas turbine testing, I ran so low in fuel getting to work once that I couldn't be sure of getting to the nearest petrol station, so I put a gallon of aviation kerosine (AVTUR) in the tank. It started OK on the petrol left in the carb float chamber, but pinked horribly all the way to the petrol station! The engine was OK though.

I have already pointed out that water injection systems can improve efficiency markedly but at some cost to engine life. These also tend to run at lower temperatures. I am not clear on the themodymanics of the mechanism, but the gross result is the same. Less energy lost in heating the block, more delivered to the crank.

Another anecdote:

A fellow apprentice had just bought a new Velocette Venom and had seen an idea in a motorcycle mag. about water injection. It basically involved a tin of water with a wick leading out of it, and attached across the carb. intake, the idea being that water vapour was drawn in with the air. He abandoned the idea after the wick was drawn into the carb., jamming the throttle slide open. He claimed to have crossed a busy crossroad in Kenton at 70mph! IIRC he killed the engine with the de-compressor.

I'm not sure about the efficiency of water injection. It seem to me that unless you can somehow recover the latent heat of evaporation before it leaves the engine, you're inevitably onto a loser!

Jim

[gonrod]

Heat engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theoretical efficiencies graphed. 70% on the graph. It's a theoretical thing.

Transformers commonly exceed 90%. I used to design switch-mode power supplies with efficiencies in the 85% to 90% range. (They often don't use transformers as such.)

Stirling engines can achieve efficiencies over 70%. They do recover exhaust heat.

Latent heat of evaporation. Recovery of.

Some of the systems I refer to do just that, but they require considerable modification to the cylinder head and crank. Others don't, but the increase in efficiencies claimed are much less.

I'm thinking that the high pressures may mean some of the H2O will be actually water at or near TDC, and evaporates as the gas expands and the pressure begins to drop. If that's the case this would (I imagine) maintain a higher pressure for a greater portion of the power stroke.

I haven't done the calculations so I don't know if that's reasonable assumption, but I think it might just be within the bounds of possibility.

The fact remains that there are internal combustion engines which utilise water to increase efficiency, and those are well documented. They do not however exist outside of the 'Laboratory environment' as (we are told) they are not practical due to poor reliability.

I already mentioned the Stirling engine, which is much more efficient. That's been around for over 100 years. We don't see Stirling engined vehicles, because the engine design "too complicated" for practical manufacture. (So we are told. They would certainly be more expensive to make.)

[gonrod]

As for pinking. I'm not talking about pinking. I'm talking about instant detonation. In no time at all. Theoretical remember?

There are a number of combustion phenomena which are often confused. Detonation is a very high-speed burn, usually associated with pre-ingnition caused by compression heating. Essentialy there is no flame propogation to speak of. The combustion does not start at a fixed point (ie the spark plug) and spread from that location, but essentially throughout the bulk of the fuel-air mixture.

Pinking is generally a mild pre-ignition, but with pinking you don't have bulk detonation, but multiple flame fronts. This is often results from hot-spots caused by ash deposits in the cylinder. The sound is not the same.

Both detonation and pinking can damage your engine certainly in the longer term. Last summer I had to strip and de-coke an engine that had blown it's gasket due to pinking.

This was the second gasket blown in two years. The previous owner had paid a mechanic to replace the gasket. It was not of course de-coked nor were the valve-stem seals renewed. So it still pinked like a xexexexexexe when I got it. The new gasket blew after a few months, and I did the job myself. Properly. It runs very sweetly now thanks.

This particular engine design is prone to blown gaskets. It's a wet-liner type of engine. Other engines with solid blocks won't necesarily blow gaskets because of even severe pinking or detonation, but your piston ring lands any good at all. If allowed to continue you would be risking a broken ring, a ruined piston and a badly scored cylinder bore.

This is due to the relatively mild shock wave caused by the pink. That's what the rattling noise is. A detonation is louder, and sounds more like someone is hitting the engine with a hammer. Will cause the same sort of damage, but faster, and much more likely to blow a gasket. Some cylinder heads & blocks will crack under that sort of abuse.

An instant detonation would definitley crack heads!

[Dave5xe]

Shows how wrong I can be, pinking I was told many years ago, is when at the end of the piston stroke the valves get sucked down against their springs and ping back up again due to a weak mixture or bad ignition timing.
I live and learn,
David

[special7232]

Originally Posted by johnandrews52

Can we run our car with water and gas?
Can anybody tell me is the HHO Gas is real working or is another scam?

no it not a scam i did alot of research before making my first electrolizer it produced hho this in itself is a very unstable gas and needs to be treated with respect and have anti flash devices fitted to your cells. the cell must produce in excess of 1 ltr per minute or you will not see any great gains from it.any car produced after 1994 have O2 senors fitted and unless you fit an efie you will not see any great improvment and you will only see on motorway driving.i drive a diesel van and was getting 22 mpg and kow get 31-32 and it is saving me money.the other thing is my MOT is up soon do anyone know if i have to take this off or what.is there anyone out there that has fitted one off these and if so whats results have you had.i am now thinking of building a dry cell any tips.

[FungiJohn]

Looking through this thread and some of the more recent activity I feel it is now time to close it.

Thank you all for your input.

John