Windfarms - Good or Bad

[nicole]

There seems to be alot in the press just recently on windfarms.

They offer us sustainable energy that is true, but there are however concerns that the expansions of windfarms may have serious impacts for the countryside. Scottish Natural Heritage has expressed great concern recently that increasing windfarm developments have the potential to cause long-term environmental damage, causing risk to many rare species.

The worlds largest windfarm has been proposed for Lewis and has had objection from such organisations as greenpeace and RSPB. The RSPB states that " Because of the disastrous implications for rare birds and wildlife, the RSPB is objecting in the strongest terms possible to the Lewis proposal" See this link http://www.rspb.org.uk/scotland/acti.../news/maps.asp

Its very hard to make a decision on whats right either way. Sustainable energy is the way forward, but we must ask ourselves is it truly sustainable if it has the potential to cause serious impact on our wildlife. Is it the lesser of 2 evils? Hard to say. I must admit im undecided on this one guys

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by nicole

I must admit im undecided on this one guys

me too. Wind farms simply trade off one environmental problem for another. Yes, they reduce carbon emissions but they are an eyesore and cause bird deaths.

As a country we clearly need to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and wind energy can clearly play a role. But I hope it is not seen as the only solution. Tidal power and solar power should also be used and I can't bring myself to dismiss nuclear energy. It does have many advantages, but that's a different debate!

Matt

[John]

This is such an emotive subject that this was raised in another forum many months ago and now the replies are in the thousands with arguments and fall outs on both sides.

Me personally I am disgusted at some of the sites they are proposing but realise that some form of renewable energy has to be found. I just don't believe that this particular route is the right one. I've yet to be convinced.

In Spain, around Tarifa and running Northwards there are literally hundreds and hundreds of these Turbines and they have acheived two things that they are famous for. Horrendously changing the landscape and habitat and at the same time they have cut down many migrating raptors as they have been sited right on the migration route from Africa.

John

[Imaginos]

It's a toughie definitely but I would question the emotive use of figures. The following is from the article quoted with population estimates from "population Trends in British Breeding Birds by Marchant, Hudson, Carter & Whittington 1990 obviously this is a little out of date but I'm sure any wildly inaccurate numbers will be corrected for me:

50 golden eagles lost due to collision with turbines British Population: circa 1000
50 merlin lost due to collision 550-650 pairs
75 to 150 red throated divers lost due to collision 1200-1500 pairs in Sotland
Minimum of 314 pairs of dunlin lost of the Great British population due to habitat loss and displacement (we believe this figure is more likely to be 640 pairs) 9,900 pairs
Minimum of 350 pairs of golden plover lost due to habitat loss and displacement (we believe 700 pairs in a worst case scenario) 30,000 pairs

So how catastrophic? the population hits for dunlin & golden plover are insignificant (1-2% of golden plover, 3-6% of dunlin) in themselves although they do reflect some habitat loss. The other figures are (I suspect deliberately) unclear as to whether these are annual or total figures. If total then again, although regrettable these numbers are not huge, if annual-which seems unlikely given the number of eagles- then, yes, the word catastrophe is rightly used.

Also from the report:

"Other likely consequences of the development include a high collision risk for migrating corncrakes (one of the UK's rarest birds), as well as whooper swans, Greenland barnacle geese, white fronted geese and white tailed eagles. Many of these species and their habitats are specially protected under European Directives"

This is a cause for concern, although may be unfounded, I could just as easily claim they cause a risk to Red Kites, as they undoubtably do in Spain, this is more a list of rare species that could occur in the area than something which has been proven.

As John says the south of Spain is covered in wind turbines, and this gives an ideal opportunity to see whther these sorts of fears are grounded or not. John, do you happen to know if any local ornithologists are studying the effects?

[matt_xyz]

Imaginos, you're right to put these figures in the context of total population figures, but remember that these losses refer to one wind farm development only (albeit a huge one). If these schemes are replicated in other parts of the UK then the losses start to seem less insignificant (if they were insignificant in the first place, arguably not for golden eagles and merlin).

Matt

[John]

Originally Posted by Imaginos

John, do you happen to know if any local ornithologists are studying the effects?

I used to know links to sites that gave that information but for the life of me I can't find them. Here is one link I have found, not about Tarifa but a more northerly site in the Pyrennes.
http://www.iberica2000.org/es/Articulo.asp?Id=1188

I just wonder how many people know how fast the outer limits of the propeller go. You might be surprised if you don't know. If you do don't put it down. Let's see some guesses by the uninformed.

John

[Fournier]

I think we're missing the point that that this is in fact the fate of all life on earth we're talking about here.
Yes, windfarms can cause serious damage to bird populations and some peple may find them unnattractive.
However if things aren't done then there won't be any bird populations whatsoever and we'll be too busy being dead to worry about anything being unnattractive. I'm sure that there'll always be complaints when trying to go for any source of energy; soon we'll here complaints of tidal energy damaging the populations of rare fish species and we'll never get anywhere. I find it unbelievable that people complain so much when those in power finally try to increase our dependency on renewable energy sources that won't destroy the world.
Maybe my tone is too harsh. However I can't help but feeling that I'm probably the youngest person on this forum, and it's my generation that's going to suffer from yours and the one before's reluctance to support what few environment-friendly initiatives there are.
This is the future of the world we're talking about. Yes it would be disastrous to see declines in eagle and Merlin populations, however this must be more desirable than losing them all together. Or are you all obsessed with maintaining life so that you yourselves get to see it, rather than preserving it for future generations (again, sorry for the harsh tone).
It may seem tempting to say let's look at other energy sources, but we're being given opportunities now to get on with it and save the world - why stand in their way?
Maybe this won't go down well, but I couldn't let continuous umming and aahing go on when it completely misses the point of how urgent this situation actually is. I'm sorry if I've just lost a lot of friends, but someone had to say it.

[nightshade]

The wind generators as they are today are noisy and intrusive,it cannot be beyond the whit of man to make a horizontal type(there are horizontal windmills available) that offers a soft collision profile to birds etc.it just means that the makers of the fan (o.k.airfoil) on a stick variety would have to spend some money on making a more acceptable type

[nicole]

I hear what your saying Fournier. I understand that the situation is urgent and indeed if we don’t act now it will be too late (however it does look very bleak sometimes). I think this is an issue that concerns everyone no matter what age group you’re in as no one wants to see future generations suffer. As a young person myself (im 20!) I am concerned about what the future holds but I cannot help but feel that so much emphasis has been put on windfarms in the UK, like they are the solution to all our problems when there is much evidence from many conservation bodies that too many of them in the UK will cause serious problems for our wildlife (evidence that should not be simply ignored). The government uses to word “sustainable” but my argument is how sustainable is it, if it is at the cost of general biodiversity. I don’t think there is 1 clear cut answer as to what is right and wrong and I think it is an argument that divides many.

Thanks for the facts, web-links and opinions guys; it’s definitely given us something to think about.

[nicole]

Originally Posted by John

I just wonder how many people know how fast the outer limits of the propeller go. You might be surprised if you don't know. If you do don't put it down. Let's see some guesses by the uninformed.

John

I would be interested to know the answer to this John