windfarms good for birds

[richnfamous]

Originally Posted by nightshade

So your neighbours will subject you to noise and transmitted vibration (with you having no say)

I once saw a spot on local tv where someone was complaining about a windmill nearby - specifically about the noise. The interesting bit was that you could hardly hear what she said because of the traffic noise from the road between her property and the wind turbine. Ho hum...

[freefeet]

Originally Posted by richnfamous

The long and the short of it is this: we're going to have to reduce our energy use across the board by a substantial amount - but don't worry, reducing your standard of living can actually improve your quality of life.

I agree. Turn off the television and go for a walk instead - Oh, the horror!!!!

[Rich_]

Originally Posted by richnfamous

The long and the short of it is this: we're going to have to reduce our energy use across the board by a substantial amount - but don't worry, reducing your standard of living can actually improve your quality of life.

.

I agree also. If we have really influenced climate change in such a short time with our energy consumption, then using low energy light bulbs & turning the central heating down one degree is hardly enough I'd have thought.

Our houses are full of appliances we don't need, most things would be classed as luxuries. How do you persuade people to get rid of the TV and their 2nd car , or stop traveling abroad on planes? how many people that are concerned about climate change are leading from the front and taken these steps already? Problem is we live in a society obsessed with improving their standard of living , not reducing it.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by richnfamous

As for wind farms being bad for birds: seems to me to be just another 'nimby' argument ... Birds aren't stupid. They'll learn to live with wind farms just as they've learned to live with shotguns. If in doubt, just watch a wood pigeon in an area where people shoot at them.

I suggest you do some research. Here's some for you to start with:

Wildlife Extra News - White-tailed sea eagles threatened by wind farms.

www.windaction.org | Wind turbines are killing condors

http://www.iberica2000.org/Es/Articulo.asp?Id=2968

As for birds living with shotguns, you'd do well to familiarise yourself with the bi-annual slaughter of migrating raptors etc in Malta

Birdwatch - Malta slaughter increases

[Ted Pearson]

Originally Posted by richnfamous

I can assure you that Denmark has almost no hydroelectric power at all. Sweden and Norway have plenty - on the other hand, neither Sweden nor Norway uses wind power much.

Essentially all Danish wind power is exported to Norway and Sweden. These countries dynamically balance the interconnected grid using their extensive hydroelectric generating capacity that can be adjusted rapidly to compensate for the highly variable input from Danish wind. The variance in the Danish wind supply is only a problem for Denmark because wind energy represents a significant proportion of the total grid supply—16%. Any country wanting to rival the Danish wind model will have to either develop a grid balancing system or develop energy sinks within the grid or both. http://www.thomastelford.com/journal...ance%20data%22

Originally Posted by richnfamous

I don't buy the nuclear argument. The embedded energy in a nuclear power plant is huge and there's still no solution to the waste problem - neither high-grade or low-grade. Like coal, just because a lot of the pollution is invisible, people can be misled into thinking it's clean, when it's not.

I am not sure what you mean by embedded energy and where the information is on how huge it is.(Link please?) There are long and short term storage facilities in the U.S. for storage of nuclear waste. In fact the U.S. imports waste from around the world for storage in our facilities. DOE Environmental Management (EM) Waste and Materials Disposition Information
As for the invisible pollution you speak of, the EPA says that the CO2 we exhale out of our lungs is pollution so you will have to be specific about your claim. Where is the data stating that the operation of these new reactors show emitted levels of radiation to the environment? Are these levels higher than what we already experience in our daily life?

Originally Posted by richnfamous

The long and the short of it is this: we're going to have to reduce our energy use across the board by a substantial amount - but don't worry, reducing your standard of living can actually improve your quality of life.

I would love to hear your theory about how the lack of Energy to cook food, heat our homes in winter and refrigerate food, will improve our quality of life.

Originally Posted by richnfamous

As for wind farms being bad for birds: seems to me to be just another 'nimby' argument, and the people who oppose renewable energy development will probably be the first to start shouting 'why didn't we do more, earlier' when energy supplies reach their, on current projections inevitable, tipping point. Birds aren't stupid. They'll learn to live with wind farms just as they've learned to live with shotguns. If in doubt, just watch a wood pigeon in an area where people shoot at them.

I agree about the birds and would like to see some actual data on what and how many birds are actually being killed by windmills. Too often we are quick to believe any assertion that spews out of someone’s pie-hole without some type of proof being provided. Geese migrate over my property every year and they never remember that I am there so they fall. I imagine if I was 100 meters tall with 3 really long arms rotating, they would turn away to miss me. Maybe some extremely unintelligent ones would bang into me, but they would also be likely to fly in front of a truck or into a shop window.
Where can I find the scientific report on the ‘Current projections on the inevitable energy tipping point’? I would be interested in quantifying that statement back to some real measurements.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Ted Pearson

I agree about the birds and would like to see some actual data on what and how many birds are actually being killed by windmills. Too often we are quick to believe any assertion that spews out of someone’s pie-hole without some type of proof being provided. .

I've posted several links above Ted. Sadly, many people 'spew' stuff out of their 'pie-holes' without doing any research first!

The British windfarm installations are still relatively small cf. to some of the continental/American ones and to date, but there's absolutely no doubt that windfarm blades kill birds (and Bats!). However, that's just part of it, environmental degradation caused by installations can have a serious impact on birds. Impacts vary depending on where they are sited, the size of installation, the speed of blades etc. Windfarm technology in Great Britain is still relatively recent but the evidence is there, especially from abroad, if one does not have an agenda to bury one's head in the sand.

Assessment of wind-farm and other bird casualties from carcasses found on a Northumbrian beach over an 11-year period - Bird Study

However, if people can't be bothered to access links to the evidence then this excerpt should at least get one started

The available evidence suggests that wind farms can harm birds in three possible ways – disturbance, habitat loss or damage (both direct or indirect), and collision. Poorly sited wind farms have caused some major bird casualties, particularly in Tarifa and Navarra in Spain, and the Altamont Pass in California. At these sites, planners failed to consider adequately the likely impact of putting hundreds, or even thousands, of turbines in areas that are important for birds of prey. Tragically, killing many hundreds of birds as a result.

The RSPB: Wind farms

Recent research into breeding birds in Scotland
Moorsyde Wind Farm Action Group (MAG) - Birds

New Zealand
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[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Ted Pearson

Geese migrate over my property every year and they never remember that I am there so they fall. I imagine if I was 100 meters tall with 3 really long arms rotating, they would turn away to miss me. Maybe some extremely unintelligent ones would bang into me, but they would also be likely to fly in front of a truck or into a shop window.

I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance Ted. Migration routes are imprinted genetically on birds and it's a known fact that even if you are regularly shooting them out of the sky (which by your comment I understand that you are?!) they would take the same route each season.

Originally Posted by Ted Pearson

The Nuclear Power plant is the obvious answer to our Green Energy needs, yet the Environmentalists do not want to use them

As energy provision/vis a vis demand, stands at the moment, I totally agree. Plastering half of Scotland and Wales with wind farm installations is not the answer to our current fuel demands/climate change anymore than destruction of tropical rainforests for biofuels. Personally and imo, it's a short-sighted knee jerk political reaction to imagine that it is. A long term strategy of combination renewables and nuclear, with equally important emphasis on voluntary reduction of our personal lifestyle demands is the only way forward imo. (Including and most importantly having less/no children/stop spending millions on medical research to find more and more ways to 'extend life'/'create' life which can only add to the disastrous environmental effects of global population increases)

[rossy]

well put picidae its pure ignorance by some folk and herd i aint a dead sparrow im alive and kicking. tell me why are the energy people on about putting our bills up by 60% if your windfarms are viable. its absolute bull your just another sheep as far as i can see and believe anything your told. read it as it is they kill birds destroy habitat and are of no use . rossy.

[Herd900rd]

Originally Posted by rossy

.....and herd i aint a dead sparrow im alive and kicking. tell me why are the energy people on about putting our bills up by 60% if your windfarms are viable. its absolute bull your just another sheep as far as i can see and believe anything your told. read it as it is they kill birds destroy habitat and are of no use . rossy.

You get one chance to put a cross on a ballot paper every five years, plus locals and Europeans, and you will be going with the majority. The winning party or parties will have to present a sensible, well-thought out case to get people to vote for them. Are the voters all sheep? I suspect if you had any viable alternative proposals you would be involved in that in some way, rossy, not stirring forum-users up about it.

I don't want to see bird corpses littering the landscape, I think all options should be looked at. I think wind power is sensible because it encourages technology which I hope can make it possible for many more individuals to have their own source of power. I don't see the government or indeed the country encouraging private use of nuclear reactors. Nuclear power may be cheaper and initially more environmentally friendly, but it too runs out and perhaps the nettle has to be grasped before new power stations can be built. Gone are the days when non-sheep like you and your mates have the final say. Thankfully.

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by rossy

well put picidae its pure ignorance by some folk and herd i aint a dead sparrow im alive and kicking. tell me why are the energy people on about putting our bills up by 60% if your windfarms are viable. its absolute bull your just another sheep as far as i can see and believe anything your told. read it as it is they kill birds destroy habitat and are of no use . rossy.

One of the biggest irritations for me is that just about everyone agrees that we need to be looking towards sustainable energy. However, because so many people dislike wind farms they would rather we suspend any such development until we can resolve the argument about which strategy will be most efficient. Imagine if we had taken the nuclear option from the beginning with the potential for every plant to be a Chernobyl. As Picidae rightly pointed out, first generation wind farms were a nightmare but what was missed in the post is that we now have that information to help mitigate against the problems caused. I am sure most people want to see renewable sources of energy but to me the argument seems to be No Wind Power and therefore, No Renewable Energy until we have something better. Reduced to this level, I simply do not understand the argument because we do not have the luxury of time to debate whilst doing nothing at all.

Incidentally, high tension cables have been around for decades and they can be every bit as destructive to bird life, particularly in bad weather. What many people do not realise is that lighthouses and plumes on gas rigs are also major hazards but little is ever mentioned about this.