Against WAB endorsing bloodsports

[Polecat]

HI All,

It is with sadness that I make this post. I find it inconceivable that 'wild about britain' supports a pro stance for fishing.

People argue that fishing is not a bloodsport, but I disagree with those people. Fishing for sport harms and often kills these creatures.

If this forum is about the love and interest of UK's wildlife and its conservation and a platform for like-minded individuals to share this interest, it should be a place where all forms of cruelty towards wildlife are despised. perhaps I don't understand what this forum is about?

I would not visit a forum that endorsed fishing as, IMO, it is a cruel sport which causes a great deal of harm and suffering to a lot of wildlife, not just fish. for example, every fisherman gets his hook and line stuck underwater at times whilst fishing, upon trying to retreive that line, it often snaps leaving the hook and line snagged underwater. Many waterfowl die from subsequently getting that hook caught whilst swiming/diving.

I didn't realise that WAB had a specific forum for fishing, and now that I do, I no longer wish to be a member of this forum. I would appreciate a manager removing my membership totally from this site as soon as is possible because I do not wish to be associated with any form of cruelty to wildlife.

...........If WAB ceases to endorse this bloodsport I would be happy to return.

If any other members don't like WAB supporting fishing it might be worth signing this thread.

....

[UB4 gardener]

am i missing something? where does it say WAB "supports a pro stance for fishing."

I hope you only eat organic food and disown any friends that use pesticides or own cats. I hope you didn't vote Labour as they continue to get the Badger cull going, drive a car as they wipe out millions upon millions of invertebrates not to mention mammals and birds. I better not mention the Rothampstead traps the the CEH use for thier research. I could go on.


In the bigger picture I personally think that fishing produces a love of nature that no other hobby can. And also man made lakes and gravel pits kept open for fishing, that would normally have been filled and developed, are great havens for wildlife. just look at the lakes in the Colne Valley during winter.

I only really started posting yesterday and it would be a shame to see anyone go over a single thread.

Regards
Chris

[Bushcraft]

Originally Posted by Polecat

HI All,

It is with sadness that I make this post. I find it inconceivable that 'wild about britain' supports a pro stance for fishing.

People argue that fishing is not a bloodsport, but I disagree with those people. Fishing for sport harms and often kills these creatures.

If this forum is about the love and interest of UK's wildlife and its conservation and a platform for like-minded individuals to share this interest, it should be a place where all forms of cruelty towards wildlife are despised. perhaps I don't understand what this forum is about?

I would not visit a forum that endorsed fishing as, IMO, it is a cruel sport which causes a great deal of harm and suffering to a lot of wildlife, not just fish. for example, every fisherman gets his hook and line stuck underwater at times whilst fishing, upon trying to retreive that line, it often snaps leaving the hook and line snagged underwater. Many waterfowl die from subsequently getting that hook caught whilst swiming/diving.

I didn't realise that WAB had a specific forum for fishing, and now that I do, I no longer wish to be a member of this forum. I would appreciate a manager removing my membership totally from this site as soon as is possible because I do not wish to be associated with any form of cruelty to wildlife.

...........If WAB ceases to endorse this bloodsport I would be happy to return.

If any other members don't like WAB supporting fishing it might be worth signing this thread.

....

Polecat,

I do respect your views. But I must say this, many people I know including myself became interested in nature from fishing. I began fishing at an early age and it was this and seeing what some anglers did to our environment that pushed me into the career im in today. Im now in my final year at university studying for a degree in conservation and environment and I teach bushcraft which is all about respecting our environment, taking what's needed and protecting what we have for our future. While I don't class fishing in the same league as Fox hunting, I will say this, if we were to ban fishing and other forms of hunting we would lose a lot of our countryside to development as the land would not be used by humans, and in turn this would lead to lots more wildlife not only being made homeless but it would cause local populations of certain species to be lost forever. While I respect your opinions it is always worthwhile looking at these things from both sides of the fence.

Best wishes
Kris

[Bushcraft]

Originally Posted by UB4 gardener

am i missing something? where does it say WAB "supports a pro stance for fishing."

I hope you only eat organic food and disown any friends that use pesticides or own cats. I hope you didn't vote Labour as they continue to get the Badger cull going, drive a car as they wipe out millions upon millions of invertebrates not to mention mammals and birds. I better not mention the Rothampstead traps the the CEH use for thier research. I could go on.


In the bigger picture I personally think that fishing produces a love of nature that no other hobby can. And also man made lakes and gravel pits kept open for fishing, that would normally have been filled and developed, are great havens for wildlife. just look at the lakes in the Colne Valley during winter.

I only really started posting yesterday and it would be a shame to see anyone go over a single thread.

Regards
Chris

I agree Chris

[Polecat]

This post isn't about calling anybody names or picking out individuals or attacking their own stance on what they understand is a passion for wildlife ( etc ) .

I also have no itention of entering into a debate on whether or not fishing is cruel.
I have the uptmost respect for All members I have chatted too here ( which includes several fishermen )

fishermen DELIBRATLEY harm fish in order to have their recreational fun. I feel this is cruel to the fish . Such cruelty on a forum which I UNDERSTOOD ( mistakenly until today ) represented wildlife LOVERS has left me with no choice.


WAB supports fishing by merit of having its own forum about the sport.

[StuartDH]

Hi Polecat,

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say that Wild About Britain endorses bloodsports. Please could you point me to the specific thread or webpage where you read this information.

As a charity, Wild About Britain doesn't take a stance on any particular sport or activity within wildlife and the natural environment. The opinions of the charity's trustees, administrators, moderators, editors and members do not necessarily reflect those of the charity.

Originally Posted by Polecat

If this forum is about the love and interest of UK's wildlife and its conservation and a platform for like-minded individuals to share this interest, it should be a place where all forms of cruelty towards wildlife are despised. perhaps I don't understand what this forum is about?

Wild About Britain aims to provide a facility that will present every angle of every debate on all wildlife and environment issues. This website attracts an eclectic mix of visitors from all over the UK and from all walks of life. As a wildlife education charity, we feel that we can only best serve the interests of education if we can openly present the facts from both sides of the debate.

We allow open discussion on hunting, Badger culls, fishing, game shooting and any other legal activities, as long as the debates are civil, and all parties are respectful of each others point of view. From this freeflow of information we hope to provide members and visitors with all the available material to make their own decision about the ethics of these activities.

Wild About Britain doesn't aim to take a stance in support of either side of these debates, as there are many groups that already provide these facilities. However, we are happy to provide external links that will enable members and visitors to further their interests and support for these groups (as long they're legal), either for/against the above activities.

Originally Posted by Polecat

I would not visit a forum that endorsed fishing as, IMO, it is a cruel sport which causes a great deal of harm and suffering to a lot of wildlife, not just fish. for example, every fisherman gets his hook and line stuck underwater at times whilst fishing, upon trying to retreive that line, it often snaps leaving the hook and line snagged underwater. Many waterfowl die from subsequently getting that hook caught whilst swiming/diving.

As I mentioned above, we're more than happy to include your opinions on the site, however, we will also be happy to hear from any members who disagree with your opinions and support fishing or any other legal wildlife activities.

Originally Posted by Polecat

I didn't realise that WAB had a specific forum for fishing, and now that I do, I no longer wish to be a member of this forum.

We don't currently have a forum dedicated to fishing, but I couldn't discount the possibility that we may have one at some time in the future.

Originally Posted by Polecat

I would appreciate a manager removing my membership totally from this site as soon as is possible because I do not wish to be associated with any form of cruelty to wildlife.

...........If WAB ceases to endorse this bloodsport I would be happy to return.

If any other members don't like WAB supporting fishing it might be worth signing this thread.

....

I appreciate that this can be a very emotive issue, and so you may not wish to take part in the forum as it could openly include conversations about fishing, hunting or any other wildlife activities. To this end, if you no longer wish to be a member of the forum, please PM me and I will close your account.

Kind regards

Stuart

[UB4 gardener]

I don't disagree that fishing is cruel, but the suffering of coarse fish is nothing compared to sea fish. I know a lot of fishes swim bladders expand and pop into thier mouths as it's dragged up through the depths in a trawlers net.

some people can be wildlife lovers and yet put down slug pellets or kill off the greenfly on thier roses in the garden. do they deserve a gardening forum? maybe not a blood sport but i'm sure if you were to tally up the amount of wildlife killed or made to suffer just because its in the wrong place at the wrong time then i'll bet you fishing comes nowhere near top.

I wonder if anything would have been mentioned if it was signal crayfish being crunched or himalayan balsam being burnt. if you say they are aliens and don't belong, then in theory you could say the same to all stocked lakes (which the vast majority are). i apologise if i am sounding aggressive, i don't meant to, just at work and in a hurry

In theory "fishermen DELIBRATLEY harm fish in order to have their recreational fun" could read Conservationists DELIBERATELY harm wildlife to conserve wildlife. the vast majority of habitats that make up our nature reserves,if not all, are interferred with, e.g. coppicing and woodland clearing for woodland butterflies and Dormice, grazing for grasslands, scrub clearing for heaths. and for species that might only be endangered in this country but plentiful in europe. Do you still join the trusts and societies? where does the line get drawn?

if you still choose to leave then fair enough, would have been a good debate

best wishes
Chris

[matt_xyz]

Hi Polecat,

I hope you don't leave WAB. As StuDH points out, this forum should be a platform for all viewpoints and your viewpoint is as legitimate as anyone elses. For what it's worth, I fall firmly on the anti-bloodsport side of the fence and am well aware that there are many WAB members who don't share my views (a debate on Fox hunting some time ago confirmed this), but I think it's more important that we concentrate on the things WAB members do have in common. Namely, a deep interest in Britsh wildlife and a concern to protect it (although clearly protection means different things to different people ).

Matt

[Polecat]

Thankyou for the trouble taken in your replies.

Allowing pro-fishing threads in the 'water life' forum is what I mean regarding WAB having its own forum. This is then further degenerated by the allowing of adverts for fishing on those pages.

running another, bigger forum, i do know how difficult it is to keep the integrity of a site intact.......with interests of members conflicting and running costs to bear in mind.

No matter that fishing is legal, it is cruel to that particular form of wildlife.

I find myself feeling hypocritical just by having my thread, which could be about the 3 hours it took me to save a mouse, next to one that endorses killing a fish for fun.......in fact it makes me feel horrible............

And my interest must be different in substance to the ethos of this site. I want to be a member of a forum that does NOT welcome a pro- discussion on grouse shooting, pheasant shooting, Rabbit shooting, fishing etc....any form of blood sport....even if it's legal to do so in Britain.

Thanks



........



.....

[cherrybee]

It was interesting reading this thread as I often go to the reservior on our commons and regularly meet some very nice people including fishermen.I have spoken to a lot of them there and every one I spoke to explained about why they fish.I also found out that each and every one of the ones I spoke to have great respect for the fish they catch.They showed me what they do when they put them back in the water once they have had a quick photo and I must say they care a lot about them.I watched one man with a type of cradle which he held for a long time in the water until the fish was ready to swim gently away.In no way did he hurry the fish and also they carry antiseptic and other stuff to put on there mouths.Another one said they sometimes have spawning sores which they also treat before putting them back.If ever they see anyone just chucking the fish back in willy nilly they also have a word and show them how they should do it.Some of them also refuse to use barbed hooks and still enjoy their sport.May be there are some who dont take as much care and whenever I have been there I have never seen any discarded fishing line etc.There is a strict rule that all fishermen make sure it is cleared and also they cannot fish there without a licence.It is a very popular place for fishing very tranquil and very friendly .Until I started my wildlife walks I would never have known this and I found it very nice to hear they care about the fish they catch.

[nightshade]

Hi Polecat I think that you may have missed the point most of the thread is us "Reminiscing"
it was through angling that a love and respect for nature was aquired.
The deeds are done but it is still of historical interest in that many areas once fished and vital with wildlife are now housing estates abstracting water
So try to understand ,you do not have to like it but it is part of the tapestry of life,pity us if you must but do not spite yourself and withdraw your voice

[Bushcraft]

Originally Posted by cherrybee

It was interesting reading this thread as I often go to the reservior on our commons and regularly meet some very nice people including fishermen.I have spoken to a lot of them there and every one I spoke to explained about why they fish.I also found out that each and every one of the ones I spoke to have great respect for the fish they catch.They showed me what they do when they put them back in the water once they have had a quick photo and I must say they care a lot about them.I watched one man with a type of cradle which he held for a long time in the water until the fish was ready to swim gently away.In no way did he hurry the fish and also they carry antiseptic and other stuff to put on there mouths.Another one said they sometimes have spawning sores which they also treat before putting them back.If ever they see anyone just chucking the fish back in willy nilly they also have a word and show them how they should do it.Some of them also refuse to use barbed hooks and still enjoy their sport.May be there are some who dont take as much care and whenever I have been there I have never seen any discarded fishing line etc.There is a strict rule that all fishermen make sure it is cleared and also they cannot fish there without a licence.It is a very popular place for fishing very tranquil and very friendly .Until I started my wildlife walks I would never have known this and I found it very nice to hear they care about the fish they catch.

Thank you for sharing this CherryBee its nice to know that a non-fisherwoman has had a glimpse into what fishing is really all about, as we are often miss-understood. I would recomend to anyone that has a bad view on fishing to watch a series called a passion for angling. Anyone who loves nature and tranquility will adore this program. It's one of a kind. I was lucky enough to meet Bob James from the series and he was a very kind person. Whether your a fisherman or not I would STRONGLY recommend this if anyone can get a copy or if not then there is also a book version of it. Its a very magical program and last for several hours as it goes through the seasons, its like stepping back in time. I would say that most people who are against fishing would change their minds after watching this wonderful series, as it shows how much we do care for nature. I just wish they would bring it out on DVD.

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Originally Posted by Polecat

HI All,

It is with sadness that I make this post. I find it inconceivable that 'wild about britain' supports a pro stance for fishing.

People argue that fishing is not a bloodsport, but I disagree with those people. Fishing for sport harms and often kills these creatures.

If this forum is about the love and interest of UK's wildlife and its conservation and a platform for like-minded individuals to share this interest, it should be a place where all forms of cruelty towards wildlife are despised. perhaps I don't understand what this forum is about?

I would not visit a forum that endorsed fishing as, IMO, it is a cruel sport which causes a great deal of harm and suffering to a lot of wildlife, not just fish. for example, every fisherman gets his hook and line stuck underwater at times whilst fishing, upon trying to retreive that line, it often snaps leaving the hook and line snagged underwater. Many waterfowl die from subsequently getting that hook caught whilst swiming/diving.

I didn't realise that WAB had a specific forum for fishing, and now that I do, I no longer wish to be a member of this forum. I would appreciate a manager removing my membership totally from this site as soon as is possible because I do not wish to be associated with any form of cruelty to wildlife.

...........If WAB ceases to endorse this bloodsport I would be happy to return.

If any other members don't like WAB supporting fishing it might be worth signing this thread.

....

This i totally disagree with, in my 20years of angling i have on two occasions seen a bird with line and on both occasions the bird has been freed, these are rare occasions to say the least.

Fishing does far more good to the nature of britain than it does bad, we are the eyes of the waterways, and without angling i'd hate to see the state of some of britains waters.

I'm not going to try and convince you that angling is not cruel, because i wont have a chance in changing your mind, but i will say that perhaps you should look at the bigger picture slightly, and see what we do for the good of nature in this country

If you feel strongly enough to leave the forum then its your choice, i don't think for a minute the forum will become an anti-angling forum, lots on here either fish now or have done in the past, and most know the good angling does.

[pxl8]

I'm wondering specifically what the objections to fishing are?

The thread has hinted at the damage caused to other wildlife by discarded tackle, etc. but the term "bloodsport" has also appeared a few times.

From my own experience as an ex-fisherman I agree with what Cherrybee said - Those fishing generally take great care the fish they catch. They also take responsibility for the way they leave a swim. In general they have a great deal of knowledge about the wildlife and for many catching fish is only a small part of the pleasure they gain from their pastime.

Discarded tackle is a disgrace but it isn't fishing that teaches such a basic lack of respect and those responsible would be showing the same dis-respect whatever they were doing so banning fishing would make no difference to the attitude of those people.

"bloodsport" in my book means an activity where there is a deliberate intention to kill. Applying this label to fishing is, IMO, extreme and mis-guided.

Polecat your posts unfortunately read as overly reactionary and you've leapt to some conclusions. How did a thread about fishing became Wab supports bloodsport and carries adverts for it?

BTW, the adverts are generated on-the-fly by google to match keywords it finds on the page the advert appears on - it's happened at the bottom of this thread as well now!

[Jonny]

Don't want to say too much as this is a bit political, but I will say this.........
I was once fishing a lake using two rods, I had a bite on one rod and reeled in the most unusual looking carp I have ever seen. After checking the fish over and applying special ointment to any lost scales and where the hook went in, I had some photo's taken, with the fish held over an unhooking mat and then released it. I sat back down for a while to calm my excited nerves, as I always did after catching a fish, when I had a bite on my other rod, I reeled in the exact same fish, no more than 10 minutes after catching it first time. If fishing is cruel, then that fish did not think so. I know this sounds like a fishing story that I made up, but I promise you it is true...............Jon Also into nature because of fishing as a kid

ps.......Please don't leave, because then you will never get your point across, and you are a good contributer to this site

[Boddie]

Originally Posted by pxl8

I'm wondering specifically what the objections to fishing are?

The thread has hinted at the damage caused to other wildlife by discarded tackle, etc. but the term "bloodsport" has also appeared a few times.

From my own experience as an ex-fisherman I agree with what Cherrybee said - Those fishing generally take great care the fish they catch. They also take responsibility for the way they leave a swim. In general they have a great deal of knowledge about the wildlife and for many catching fish is only a small part of the pleasure they gain from their pastime.

Discarded tackle is a disgrace but it isn't fishing that teaches such a basic lack of respect and those responsible would be showing the same dis-respect whatever they were doing so banning fishing would make no difference to the attitude of those people.

"bloodsport" in my book means an activity where there is a deliberate intention to kill. Applying this label to fishing is, IMO, extreme and mis-guided.

Polecat your posts unfortunately read as overly reactionary and you've leapt to some conclusions. How did a thread about fishing became Wab supports bloodsport and carries adverts for it?

BTW, the adverts are generated on-the-fly by google to match keywords it finds on the page the advert appears on - it's happened at the bottom of this thread as well now!

I could not agree more.

Fishing is by far the most popular sport practiced in the UK and 99 percent of anglers do so responsibly.

Surely this forum is for reasoned debate? People often disagree with myself but it does not mean I think they are wrong*. They just have a different point of view, which they are entitled to.

Surely one of the best ways to educate people is to debate with them, and make informative comment, and not to react in such a way as to dismiss their opinions out of hand?

Many anglers have a deep respect for wildlife and talk with great affection for the fish they catch, and return responsibly. I have never met an angler who does not love his pursuit and appreciate wildlife. Most of these guys have fantastic knowledge. I understand there are a few bad apples but you get that in every walk of life and from what I have seen most anglers do not tolerate it.

Personally I support angling. You may disagree with that but it is my opinion and not neccesarily that of the site / charity.

Furthermore I think your thread title is irresponsible and unrepresentative of the sites views.

*but they usually are

[nightshade]

Hi Jonny I had a very similar experience with a large tench,having drawn a number into a canal swim and fed them well I was getting no joy so changed to floating casters,whereupon
I caught a 4+lb tench,having weighed it and photographed it against a measuring tape
I returned it to the water.Changing tactic I fished lift and 10-15 minutes later hooked the same fish!
My brother in law did a thesis on stress in (I think) trout and reached the conclusion that they were off feed and had high stress levels for many hours even days!

[matt_xyz]

further to my post above, I would like to clarify the fact that I do not personally class angling as a bloodsport. I think this is rather too emotive and inflammatory. I can see the arguments against angling - namely that it causes distress to an animal in the name of recreation (and it's hard to argue that catching a fish with a hook and hauling it out of its natural environment doesn't cause it some kind of distress), but equally I am well aware that anglers are custodians of the riverbanks and most care passionately about the natural environment.

p.s. Jonny, I'm not sure whether catching the same fish twice proves fishing is not cruel! More likely it just proves that the fish had trouble telling the difference between real flies and fishermans' flies (or whatever other bait you were using).

Matt (against bloodsports, but on the fence when it comes to angling )

[John]

I can honestly say I find it hard to believe that WAB is being held up to a bit of ransom. That's right. A member has said more or less if we pull the thread (and don't have another like it again) that he will stay in WAB. Keep it in and he will leave. Some debating procedure that.

He has picked on fishing as a cruel sport. If he is going to do that I want to see hard facts on it, not heresay. He fails to mention that Angling has been the champion of clean water, that in fact private and club waters protect and encourage wildlife. He also fails to mention that angling is usually the first to spot, and fight pollution in our rivers. Sure, there is a bad element in angling as there is in all walks of life. You can't legislate for that but in the main the majority of Anglers, and their governing bodies are very responsible people.

There is no need for me to go down the route of Fishing brings you into contact with wildlife as it is a very well known fact (something that the originator of this thread doesn't acknowledge).

I wonder if he drives a car. If so how sorry does he feel about killing all the moths, butterflies, insects in general as well as the odd Rabbit, Bird, Deer, you name it. A car is a killing machine but of course what they kill are possibly small insignificant things that really don't matter. What is the difference if you are totally in love with wildlife whether you take a rod, line and hook to a fish (which is allowed to return to the water) and a car (which doesn't give a second chance to whatever it hits).

Size has nothing to do with it of course. If you love wildlife to the extent that the opener of this thread has stated then you can't pick and choose what wildlife you protect and what wildlife you ignore.

Angling always has been an easy target but if you have never tried it then how can you give an informed opinion on it.

I also take great offence to being told in a back handed way that I don't love wildlife because I like angling. What absolute rubbish.

I'm sorry but I am as incensed by what has been said in the opening thread as he is about angling.

How narrow minded can you get to actually threaten to quit if you don't get your own way.

The decision is yours my friend. Think long and hard before you make it because there are very few forums that will stand that sort of narrow minedness.

John

[Airehead]

Originally Posted by Polecat

I have the uptmost respect for All members I have chatted too here ( which includes several fishermen )

fishermen DELI