Against WAB endorsing bloodsports

[Boddie]

Originally Posted by pheonix

All im going to say is, each to there own.
I dont disagree because everyone has there opinions and they are never wrong, but everyone should respect everyone elses opinions too.

I have to disagree with you there

[Airehead]

Originally Posted by nightshade

Airehead,I agree with most of what you have said until you get to the bit about rioting,
Hunters and anglers would not be there because they are already on the road to fulfilment
in their chosen pastimes

Yes, that is precisely what I meant. Sorry, reading my posting again I see that it can be misunderstood.

[arvensis]

I think that Polecat went a bit OTT with what he said. He has his right to voice an opinion, likewise others voice their opinions. At the end of it those in charge of WAB took the correct decision and continue to allow threads about fishing. Thats what I like - freedom of speech, as long as it not flagrant and offensive personal attacks. Suppression of reasonable freedom of speech causes resentment. I do not fish, but if others want to do it, then its fine by me.

I wonder what a WAB poll along the lines of who take part in fishing, those who don't fish but still agree with and those against fishing. The result would be interesting.

Mark

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by arvensis

I think that Polecat went a bit OTT with what he said. He has his right to voice an opinion, likewise others voice their opinions. At the end of it those in charge of WAB took the correct decision and continue to allow threads about fishing. Thats what I like - freedom of speech, as long as it not flagrant and offensive personal attacks. Suppression of reasonable freedom of speech causes resentment. I do not fish, but if others want to do it, then its fine by me.

I wonder what a WAB poll along the lines of who take part in fishing, those who don't fish but still agree with and those against fishing. The result would be interesting.

Mark

I agree with you mark - He has a perfect right to voice his opinion but the whole stance of his thread - indeed even its title - comes across as an attack on WAB for not agreeing with his opinion and for allowing those with pro views to voice their opinions too.

Its a shame that he felt the need to leave over this but I guess he realised finally that he aint "bigger than the site", perhaps when he has had time to calm down he might wish to come back as has happened before with other members who have left in high dudgeon.

[John]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I agree with you mark - He has a perfect right to voice his opinion but the whole stance of his thread - indeed even its title - comes across as an attack on WAB for not agreeing with his opinion and for allowing those with pro views to voice their opinions too.

Its a shame that he felt the need to leave over this but I guess he realised finally that he aint "bigger than the site", perhaps when he has had time to calm down he might wish to come back as has happened before with other members who have left in high dudgeon.

I hope he comes back too. If he is in here as a guest at all I hope he reads through all the replies to the thread and digests it all. If he does that he might start to reappraise his thoughts on the subject.

If he is reading this I will say to him. Come back into WAB Polecat. You may be feeling a little embarrased by it all but don't be. We all have moments in our life when we say things we regret but we get over them. No one is going to have a go at you other that what has already been said in this thread. You will be welcomed back even with your views, but now you have to understand that we all have our own opinions on the subject and yours, nor anybody elses opinions, should be forced on anyone.

As has been said many times, this is an open forum and a healthy debate on all subjects is the way forward.

John

[nightshade]

If you deny your origins (as a hunter/gatherer) you cannot reconcile your future
(confucious-nightshade 2006)

[Gill Catton]

The thing is i'm not 100% certain it was the hunter gathering bit he was upset by. I think rather it's the hunt to release to be hunted again and again that maybe upset him.


but I suppose the fish do keep taking the bait, but then maybe they really can't tell the baits from real food..........

I must admit, it's the only aspect of fishing that sits a little uncomfortably with me. Fishing to eat is a whole other aspect and one I'm wholly in favour of because the fish only gets caught and hurt and stressed once - (hopefully) and in a river or other semi-natural habitat it's perhaps the best and most efficient way to catch a few trout (or other) for tea and it's free range and has lived naturally. Brilliant I say - Though whether there are enough fish to support the angling world if they fished this way I don't know. Maybe specimen fishing protects the wild stocks somewhat....

I guess I'm on the fence

Same with game shooting really, often produces brilliant habitats and is free range meat but again I have a problem with those who shoot 150 birds and then burn them or bury them and all that meat and all those little lives are wasted.

I guess I'm against hurting animals if you don't need to and disregarding a life that you take.
I am a bit of a softy though, I've felt guilt and apologised to every snail I've ever stood on

[Wild-Woman]

I subscribe to a quarterly magazine published by the Natural Environment Research Council. There is a short interesting article in the summer issue which may be of interest to you.

www.nerc.ac.uk

Go to Summer 2006, scroll down to Bite-size and the article is at the bottom of that page.

Just something to think about-ww

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

As far as fish feeling pain goes, there has been plenty of reseach done on the subject and most has shown that although fish have the potetial to feel pain, the brain is not capable of processing that into actual pain. Having fished for 20 years+ i firmly believe that you do not "hurt" fish by catching them, i've seen far to many instances to prove this to me.

All i will to say to people who are unsure about angling is to watch "A passion for Angling"

[pheonix]

Another point to remember, is that although like anything fishing has bad people and bad points, people buying rod licences allow the environment agency to plough a lot of money back into the environment. Sometimes this can be seen as only benfiting the fishermen but its not, the have spent lots of money working on salmon spawning rivers that people arn't allowed to fish, and it helps all wildlife associated with rivers.

[Airehead]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

As far as fish feeling pain goes...

This has been a popular line of inquiry for those agonizing over the 'ethics' of fishing but it is not one which I have been prepared to follow because I suspect that I would be bound in the end to defeat myself.

Let's go down a level and consider worms. When you cut them with a spade, they squirm. Do they feel pain? Should we stop digging our gardens?

In the end the answer to this question, supposing there could be one, would not affect my intention to go fishing. Does this make me cruel? No, it makes me honest - unlike many who have been pressed into using facile and unrealistic arguments to protect their interest in blood and allied sports (e.g. hunters, 'we do it to control the Fox population'). I made a similar statement to the angling press and they did not print my letter. I am rather sad that they did not dare to admit that whether or not a fish can feel pain would not affect their actions.

Apropos both this aspect of the topic and the earlier one "How can you say you love the fish but still catch them ...", I have realised that I can give a kind of definition of the situation as it presents itself to me. After my earlier posting I decided that I should be able to more accurately describe just what my feelings are and it came to me that it goes like this:

On killing a fish - or buying meat from a butcher, it makes no difference - I have exactly the same sort of regret for the death of that animal as I have for the fact that in a increasingly short time I will also be dead. And that is precisely how I can celebrate life, including my own, and yet accept and even participate in its ending. Furthermore, if I die without pain I will be lucky. It is very unlikely that any other animal will be so lucky with or without our participation. That is the world we live in and I do not wish to deny it.

To get horribly philosophical, I wonder how many of the people who support animal rights, anti-hunting, etc are in fact trying to deny the world they live in and the fact of their own mortality.

[nightshade]

Airehead,I think you have it almost.

[John]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

As far as fish feeling pain goes, there has been plenty of reseach done on the subject and most has shown that although fish have the potetial to feel pain, the brain is not capable of processing that into actual pain. Having fished for 20 years+ i firmly believe that you do not "hurt" fish by catching them, i've seen far to many instances to prove this to me.

The problem is that differing statements are given from differing quarters. Most people will latch onto the one statement that backs up their argument. I'm not sure fish don't feel pain but I do know they struggle when caught. Is this fighting for freedom or fighting the pain. I doubt if we will ever know.

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

All i will to say to people who are unsure about angling is to watch "A passion for Angling"

Absolutely stunning programme and one of the best advocates of the sport.

The only probem is that it doesn't represent the sport as followed by the vast majority as it is a million light years away from the ordinary Jo and his / her fishing.

The other problem with PFA is that virtually all their fishing was done on private waters that the likes of you and me have virtually no chance of fishing.

Fabulous as that programme was it doesn't paint a true picture. It is almost fantasy fishing but in my view possibly one of the best fishing / wildlife programmes ever made. It also had possibly the most stunning photography ever seen in most wildlife / fishing programmes over the years.

John

[John]

Originally Posted by nightshade

Airehead,I think you have it almost.

I'm also very impressed by airheads thoughts. Well balanced and very well explained.

John

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Airehead

Let's go down a level and consider worms. When you cut them with a spade, they squirm. Do they feel pain? Should we stop digging our gardens?

No, but would you deliberately cut worms in half as a recreational pursuit? That is the relevant question to ask.

Originally Posted by Airehead

In the end the answer to this question, supposing there could be one, would not affect my intention to go fishing. Does this make me cruel? No, it makes me honest - unlike many who have been pressed into using facile and unrealistic arguments to protect their interest in blood and allied sports (e.g. hunters, 'we do it to control the Fox population'). I made a similar statement to the angling press and they did not print my letter. I am rather sad that they did not dare to admit that whether or not a fish can feel pain would not affect their actions.

I appreciate your honesty.

Originally Posted by Airehead

On killing a fish - or buying meat from a butcher, it makes no difference - I have exactly the same sort of regret for the death of that animal as I have for the fact that in a increasingly short time I will also be dead.

Yes, but the latter can't be avoided - we're discussing the rights and wrongs of killing or injuring animals as a recreational pursuit and such death and injury obviously is avoidable.

Originally Posted by Airehead

And that is precisely how I can celebrate life, including my own, and yet accept and even participate in its ending. Furthermore, if I die without pain I will be lucky. It is very unlikely that any other animal will be so lucky with or without our participation. That is the world we live in and I do not wish to deny it.

I don't deny it either. Which is precisely why I try to minimise pain and suffering.

Originally Posted by Airehead

To get horribly philosophical, I wonder how many of the people who support animal rights, anti-hunting, etc are in fact trying to deny the world they live in and the fact of their own mortality.

I can assure you I am fully aware of my own mortality. Again, to reiterate my point above, I am so aware of the pain and suffering in the natural world that I choose not to add to it if at all possible. And certainly not by way of a hobby.

My arguments above are not specifically aimed at angling, since Airehead's arguments raise general issues that go beyond angling.

Matt

[Wild-Woman]

This has been such an interesting read-the whole thread I mean. It has incorporated such a range of feelings, opinions and emotions. Polecat certainly dropped the pebble in the pond, which has caused all the ripples of feelings. I hope he does continue reading all of this.

There's a few questions I'd like to ask anglers, purely out of interest,and because the only fish I've ever caught were in a fishing net.
What is it that makes you want to fish? Is it sport, the mystery of what's in the water,the challenge of the landing, seeing what species you get?
If you could take a picture of the fish underwater, would you get the same satisfaction?

I think fish are wonderful, purpose adapted creatures and I love underwater pictures of them.

I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to inflame the thread, this as I have mentioned is purely interest.ww

[Jonny]

Originally Posted by Wild-Woman

This has been such an interesting read-the whole thread I mean. It has incorporated such a range of feelings, opinions and emotions. Polecat certainly dropped the pebble in the pond, which has caused all the ripples of feelings. I hope he does continue reading all of this.

There's a few questions I'd like to ask anglers, purely out of interest,and because the only fish I've ever caught were in a fishing net.
What is it that makes you want to fish? Is it sport, the mystery of what's in the water,the challenge of the landing, seeing what species you get?
If you could take a picture of the fish underwater, would you get the same satisfaction?

I think fish are wonderful, purpose adapted creatures and I love underwater pictures of them.

I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to inflame the thread, this as I have mentioned is purely interest.ww

Good question Julie..........I think for me it was the challenge, but I was only 8 or 9, so who knows. I had caught several minnows and then my first (proper) fish was a small dace. I always loved messing about round the river and I suppose fishing was just a natural thing for me to do. Had a great childhood because of it...............Jon

[Gill Catton]

[quote=Airehead]This has been a popular line of inquiry for those agonizing over the 'ethics' of fishing but it is not one which I have been prepared to follow because I suspect that I would be bound in the end to defeat myself.

Let's go down a level and consider worms. When you cut them with a spade, they squirm. Do they feel pain? Should we stop digging our gardens?


A lot of what you say makes sense totally and honesty is good. It's very right to say that if you enjoy eating meat you have indeed enjoyed the death of an animal perhaps as much as someone else enjoys the challenge of killing it. I have no problem with this so long as as the animal has been killed as humanely as was possible at the time and that much of the animal is used as possible. It has been killed for a real reason and that's fine with me.

However, with regards to your worm argument I think it comes down to reasonble effort. It is virtually impossible to efficently dig earth without hurting and killing worms. If there was a way to do it efficently and not hurt or kill worms then I'd do it.

As for the pain issue. Some people are born unable to feel pain. They plunge an arm into boiling water or jump from a high wall and feel no pain from their bistering skin or broken bones. They do not flinch or shy away from injury. But animals do. Why do they do this if they don't feel pain? Why do they vocalise or struggle? Why does my cat avoid being trodden on once it's happened?

When you put your fingers on something hot it's not the reflex pull away that makes you remember not to do it again, it's the pain. Surely it's possible then it's not just the reflex that makes my subodinate fishes in my tank learn to swim rapidly away from a bossier (and often smaller) tank mate after having it's fins nipped a few times?

I find it hard to believe that it's purely reflex action - I must admit I don't remember ever having been a fish and I think its faily unrealisticto assume anyone will ever really know what fish think (if they think) or feel.

But I don't understand how scientists can assume that they know what's going on inside an animals brain when they don't fully understand human emotions or feelings. It's easier to recognise pain in mammals as they react in a similar manner to us, plus they are not obscured by water. It may be harder to stomach pulling in a squeaking Rabbit on a hook through it's lip, than a fish you cannot see.

I'm not here going back on what I have said previously with regard to fishing, I feel that the rod and line is the best and most efficent way to catch a small number of fish for your own use, as you don't risk dragging the bottom - wrecking habitats or catching non target species as much as if you used a huge net or electro fishing, yes the fish suffer for a short time but it seems to me to still be potentially the best way of catching them.
But it's putting the animal back into the same environment where it is highy likely to suffer repeatedly that I find uncomfortable - at least if unwanted catch in a river it can be released and it may escape (although this might not even be true if it's got a fixed territory) - but at least it's an unfortunate by- product of fishing for dinner rather than a choice to catch a large fish - even if it's the same fish again and again.

Personally I'd rather assume that animals do feel pain and work around that wherever possible, than assume they don't and then possiby be causing unnecessary suffering.

[Gill Catton]

errr apologies for the novel.......

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Gill,

The best way i can desribe the "pain" aspect

If you put a hook into a dog with a line attached and pulled what would happen, the dog would come towards you, pretty much like when you pull on a lead of one. Suggesting that it feels pain. A fish fights back in exactly the same situation, only an animal that didn't feel pain would do that.

I suggest to you and all others that have doubts over fishing, go and watch somebody fish, see the care taken to ensure that the fish isn't harmed.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

Gill,

The best way i can desribe the "pain" aspect

If you put a hook into a dog with a line attached and pulled what would happen, the dog would come towards you, pretty much like when you pull on a lead of one. Suggesting that it feels pain. A fish fights back in exactly the same situation, only an animal that didn't feel pain would do that.

What about if you put the hook into the lip of a wild Fox that thinks it will die if it comes to you rather than a domesticated animal like a dog or a bull?

Is it the lack of pain that makes a Fox in a fur trap chew it's leg off or the fear of death?