Where have all the hedgehogs gone?

[nightshade]

I have never given milk to any animal on the premise that milk is for babies it is also an excellent food for bacteria.Where would Hedgehogs get it from in the wild?

[eeyore]

Quite, excepting old wives tales about them sucking it from cows teats they wouldnt encounter it naturally at all. In fact even the assertion that cows milk is good for us is somewhat flawed - its good for children and adolecents and better for adults than a variety of other thinks we might drink , but its high lactose content has been repeatedly shown to lead to minor digestive disorders even in those who have not previously had them - goats milk is somewhat better as the lactose content is lower.

[catalaze]

Milk is a good adjunct to the Hedgehog diet and also gives people a chance to see what is usually a rather secretive little mammal. I think everything I had to say is in my original post and anyone who wants to know more can read the Whittet book and/or look up the peer-reviewed literature on the subj.

When I wrote, I had no idea who started this myth & assumed it a general misconception. I was, therefore, somewhat surprised when you appeared to attribute the origin of the belief to the organisation you cite. I don't, however, think it is fair to go on to cast aspersions on the character of named individuals.

The garden and town are not the evolved habitat of the Hedgehog and food supplementation is as useful to them as almost any other animal, including Homo sapiens. They are naturally somewhat opportunist in their diet, anyway, enjoying the odd egg and fruit in addition to invertebrates.

As I write, I can hear the distinctive hoarse snuffling of a Hedgehog making its rounds of the undergrowth in the garden, sniffing out whatever it can find. If it stops for quick drink, from milk dish or pond, I'll enjoy that too.

[eeyore]

I am not casting any aspertions on the work of pat morris - all his research proved was that Hedgehogs regularly drink milk, which indeed they do, but this doesnt mean that it is good for them, after all people regularly smoke, eat junk food, drink too much, take drugs etc etc.

I doubt that Les originated the dont feed milk to Hedgehogs idea but he definitely has done enough research to substantiate its truth. Unadulterated cows milk may well be the difference between life and death for a young Hedgehog, but far from being a life saver it could easily be the kiss of death. Wildlife hospitals dont feed them expensive complan formula for a laugh, they do so because bitter experience has shown that feeding cows milk is often fatal.

And incidentally I do not just "appear to atribute" this information to tiggywinkles - by implication you are calling me a liar which I do not appreciate - All the information I have put here is on their website so anyone who doubts my word can check it out for themselves http://www.sttiggywinkles.org.uk/

I agree that there is nothing wrong with suplementary feeding but it is a good move to feed stuff which resembles their natural diet and which stands a better chance of being good for them.

Anyway I have said all i have to say on this matter also and it appears that we are going to have to agree to disagree, but as far as anyone else reading this goes by all means check out the pat morris book and peer review, but please also check out Les stockers four books on the subject and the other surrounding information.

And ask yourselves one question , if there is any chance that what you are feeding might be bad for your hedgy freinds woulnt it be better to err on the side of caution and feed summat else instead ?

[catalaze]

Oh dear, Eeeore, have a nice thistle, do. "Appear to attribute" isn't an insult, you just didn't say outright that you DID attribute the comments to them. You don't believe milk is a perfectly good food. The evidence I've seen says it is. End of story.

[Boddie]

Actually milk is an horrendous foodstuff for humans but we are all encouraged to drink it. It is by far and away one of the biggest causes of allergies in humans.

It is simply not natural to drink another animals milk. Dont get me wrong, I do, but I can tell you as a fact that milk is not 'good' for human consumption.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by catalaze

Oh dear, Eeeore, have a nice thistle, do. "Appear to attribute" isn't an insult, you just didn't say outright that you DID attribute the comments to them.

Actually i did say explicitly that the information had come from them, twice! once in post 23 and once in 25.

Originally Posted by catalaze

You don't believe milk is a perfectly good food. The evidence I've seen says it is. End of story.

The british Hedgehog preservation society http://www.britishhedgehogs.org.uk also say that water is the best thing to offer to drink - and they acknowledge pat morris as the source of their info so perhaps his findings were not so clear cut after all.

It might be fairer to say that the evidence you have seen suggests it is while the evidence I have seen, including work from the foremost Hedgehog treatment centre in the Uk, vets, doctors, and animal welfare experts, suggests it isnt. nuff said.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Boddie

Actually milk is an horrendous foodstuff for humans but we are all encouraged to drink it. It is by far and away one of the biggest causes of allergies in humans.
.

Presumably we are encouraged to drink it because we don't get enough calcium in our diet from other sources in our childhood and teenage years, particularlly if we are eating proccesed junk, which wouldnt have been the case in primoridial society when we were evolving.

however this is not true of hodgehegs, as they do get the calcium they need through their natural diet, principally from eating snails.

[derekmc]

It's been interesting reading the previous posts, as this year I've seen more Hedgehogs locally (in West Reading) than ever before.

I've a feeling that - like Wild-Woman mentioned in an earlier post - their absence in the past had more to do with the so-called "nature lovers" who lived a few doors from us, but who still insisted on covering their garden with slug pellets, or cutting their back lawn to within an inch of its life and then covering it with chemicals to make it grow again. I'm still trying to work out the logic of that one!

This couple moved away about 18 months ago, and our new neighbours don't use slug pellets. I don't think it's a coincidence that we now have up to 5 Hedgehogs coming into our back garden at any one time. Watching them interact - with hissing, snuffles and reverse shuffles whenever they met on our back garden - is a real pleasure, and Cathy and I feel priviliged to have been given an insight into their world. Hedgehog Big Brother is much better than the TV version!

The use of milk seems to be getting a pretty mixed response in this thread. I must admit that we don't put this out for our visitors, but use Cesar dog food, a dish of water and a good handful of sunflower hearts scattered over the patio. it seems to work well - the Hedgehogs look healthy, and the seeds are particularly popular.

Just out of interest, my wife (originally from South-West Scotland) always calls them "Fuzzy-Pegs" - anyone else have any unusual local names for Hedgehogs?

Derek

[Fritillary]

eeyore wrote

Is milk beneficial to adult animals?
No, for the following reasons:
.......
7. Milk is an ideal medium for the proliferation of harmful bacteria in the stomach and intestines.

Do Hedgehogs like milk?
Undoubtedly, but we all like chocolate which is bad for our teeth.

Sorry but it doesnt look correct these things.

Ok milk is not beneficial to adult animals, but so why most of people drink milk as adults and they are not sick?

Say that chocolate is bad for teeth is wrong. It is the sugar that destroy the teeth. So if you eat a comercial bar of chocolate (full of sugar) and several times a day without washing your teeth, yes, you will loose them. Eat good chocolate (having elemental hygiene) as all food is healthy.

[speckled wood]

[quote=Fritillary]

Ok milk is not beneficial to adult animals, but so why most of people drink milk as adults and they are not sick?

QUOTE]

Many people smoke without apparent ill effects or discomfort but examination of their lungs and other organs might tell a different story, perhaps much the same with milk. I suffered no apperent ill effects from drinking milk but I stopped drinking it or having it is tea or coffee 25 years ago and I noticed the benefit almost straight away ..... minor digestive problems seemed to fade away, have rarely suffer "wind" since, same might not happen to everyone but it certainly happened to me. I stopped taking sugar with tea and coffee about 5 years earlier .... I had never suffered any apparent ill effects but again I felt the benefit. I was later to develop diabetes but that is another story.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by wildone

They are being run over. I saw 2 early monday morning, dead on the side of the road and another this morning.

I see more run over than alive, is really upsetting. Also keep getting late babies which need rescuing. Cars mostly to blame also bad gardening, using slug pellets and chemicals. Paving or decking so animals can't get worms etc.

[honeybee]

btw i'm not vegan but I was for a few years and would like to be again. Dairy is bad for us end of story, it's not ment for us, milk is for baby cows not people. It's barely digestable. Cows were domesticated fairly recently in terms of human history and our stomachs aren't ment for it. It's just another billion dollar industry and a load of brainwashing to tell us it's good for us...I was perfectly healthy as a vegan but in todays society it's difficult to be one.

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by catalaze

Milk is a good adjunct to the Hedgehog diet and also gives people a chance to see what is usually a rather secretive little mammal. I think everything I had to say is in my original post and anyone who wants to know more can read the Whittet book and/or look up the peer-reviewed literature on the subj.
.

Catalaze, I've been looking but can't find any peer-reviewed literature on the subject that endorses your point of view-could you give me some pointers?

Whilst searching I've found lots of references as to why milk is bad for hedehogs though...

[Jens]

I passed two flattened Hedgehogs whilst walking up the brae to work today. This same stretch of road is the scene of much toad carnage, would the Hedgehogs have been interested in run over toads for food? (I live in a very quiet village so the amount of road kill amazes me).

[Fritillary]

Many thanks Speckled woods for your information

[badgerwatcher]

What does Hedgehog poo look like, so I can keep an eye out for it? I'm still trying to work out which is Badger and which is Fox, especially now the blackberries have finished, which was the only way I could tell foxes. One lot is rather grey and sandy. is that Badger?

[arvensis]

I saw a young one early yesterday morning (4 am ish) but it looked healthy(and fat) enough to survive the winter.

Mark

[nightshade]

Hedgehog poo is usually black 50-60mm long pointed at both ends about
the thickness of a pencil or a little more

[Suzie]

I moved to this area (West Sussex) a few weeks ago ... and I am SO happy that on night 3 living here, a Hedgehog came right up to the patio door. I've never seen a Hedgehog (alive or squished -yuk) before (and this is the very reason I joined WAB, to find out how to keep him happy). But I haven't seen it since and I know absolutely nothing about Hedgehogs. I haven't got a great big garden with lots of hidy places though I guess it could have come in from a neighbouring garden or do they tend to be territorial? ... I won't give it any milk either ....

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by badgerwatcher

What does Hedgehog poo look like, so I can keep an eye out for it? I'm still trying to work out which is Badger and which is Fox, especially now the blackberries have finished, which was the only way I could tell foxes. One lot is rather grey and sandy. is that Badger?

you can always smell foxes a mile off (well not quite)... Badger is blacker and in a dug out badgerloo

[badgerwatcher]

The whole garden smells pretty much of poo, really, unless I do regular shovel patrols. I've spotted the Badger loos, so I guess the rest is foxes, and visiting cats, of which I see a few. My dog's I recognise. I never thought I would be trying to identify different animal poos. I'm looking forward to studying tracks in the snow when it comes. I'll keep a look-out for Hedgehog poo. Thanks, Nightshade.

[nightshade]

Suzie,put out a little tinned cat food,but Must be accompanied with water
chopped apple, slugs, worms,are fine but do not overfeed if you want
them to hunt out the pests in your garden.Bear in mind also that a hogs
tummy is about the size of a golf ball

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by badgerwatcher

The whole garden smells pretty much of poo, really, unless I do regular shovel patrols. I've spotted the Badger loos, so I guess the rest is foxes, and visiting cats, of which I see a few. My dog's I recognise. I never thought I would be trying to identify different animal poos. I'm looking forward to studying tracks in the snow when it comes. I'll keep a look-out for Hedgehog poo. Thanks, Nightshade.

dogs are usually first to find and roll in Badger and Fox poop and you'll be trying to get the smell out for a while. somebody said tomato ketchup neutralises the smell but i think that was a wind-up?!