proposed Severn barrage

[tabbykitten]

No formal campaign around yet but can I ask folks to keep a watch out for anything.

the intention of the Welsh Assembly (BOO BOO BOO) e al is that a tidal power barrier is constructed from Lavernock, west of Cardiff, to Brean in Somerset.

Although I am in favour of harnessing tidal energy such a large construction must surely be detrimental to wild life. Brean and its sand dunes is an especially interesting area. The Severn Bore would also be affected.

My hubby (very ungreen) reckons it would be effective but pointless

[nightshade]

I know someone who was very involved in the project some years ago,trying to establish the likely impact on the marine life

[tabbykitten]

I've been doing a bit of a surf. Get the impression that a good deal of research is going to be done.
The Cardiff Bay marina barrage caused a lot of worries but many were unfounded.
Think those of us who care for the world just do not trust politicians to behave sensibly!

[nightshade]

I cannot get hold of him but the remit took him right out to sea

[tabbykitten]

There was an item on BBC Wales online news yesterday where several wild life trusts had expressed concern.
I've been doing a closer study of maps and it is interesting how close the two points (Lavernock and Brean) are. Also that the shortest line between the two cuts right across Flat Holm.
More and more pro and con factors building up on this one!

[Hawkwind]

Originally Posted by tabbykitten

No formal campaign around yet but can I ask folks to keep a watch out for anything.

the intention of the Welsh Assembly (BOO BOO BOO) e al is that a tidal power barrier is constructed from Lavernock, west of Cardiff, to Brean in Somerset.

Although I am in favour of harnessing tidal energy such a large construction must surely be detrimental to wild life. Brean and its sand dunes is an especially interesting area. The Severn Bore would also be affected.

My hubby (very ungreen) reckons it would be effective but pointless

Hi Tabbykitten,
I have just read your posting regarding the proposals for the construction of the new Severn Barrage. I can help you with information regarding this matter. I work for the RSPB and live in South Wales and we are currently running a campaign oppossing this scheme.
The RSPB supports any form of re-newable energy but the Severn Barrage would displace 65,000 wildfowl and have impact on four sites protected by European law.
The construction of the barrage will cost between 10 to 15 billion pounds and the RSPB believes the money would be better spent building smaller renewable energy plants across Wales, generating the same amount of energy and providing more jobs locally.
The Welsh Assembly Government have committed themselves to reducing carbon emmissions in Wales but have overlooked the tremendous amount of carbon dioxide that would be created during the seven year construction of the barrage.
If you want to know more and get involved in our campaign please phone my colleage Ruth Lovell, Policy Advocate for the RSPB, Cyrmu in Cardiff. Tel. 029 2035 3000 or e-mail www.rspb.org.uk. Please help us in our campaign and get back to me if you need any more information. Many thanks, Hawkwind.

[Hawkwind]

Sorry Tabbykitten, The e-mail adress you need to find out about the Seven Barrage campaign is ruth.lovell@rspb.org.uk. Good luck and help us stop this development. Many thanks, Hawkwind.

[tabbykitten]

Thanks Hawkwind.

I am already linked to RSPB nationally, although not a member, but the extra info from you is useful. I have a cybermate living near Swansea, we are both fanatical about caring for the environment. I will email her too regarding your message.

[xestop1]

Looks like its time to get active and make sure that the Severn Barrage proposals go no further than mere proposals. This government has pledged to protect and conserve the environment, but when it really comes to the crunch it is only lip service. Who is against this and how can we stop it ? Stand up and be counted...

Pete

[tabbykitten]

Looks like things are kicking off.

the RSPB contact - see early posts - is a starting point. Friends of the Earth are also opposing the barrage.

what concerns me is that development of nuclear power stations - Hinkley and Wylfa in the Wales and Bristol area seem to be the only alternative the government will consider.

A barrage seems like a lesser evil. doesn't mean it is right though!

[troutmask]

Can't see how a barrage that will cost millions, destroy a unique environment (the Severn Bore) and generate little in the way of energy can be described as the "lesser evil" when compared to a non polluting, safe energy source like nuclear power. unless you are another victim of the continued campaigns of misinormation against nuclear technology.
We need energy, we need low carbon generatation, we need a reliable source thatwill not destroy the environment. Nuclear can meet all these requirements.

[tabbykitten]

I'm certainly not anti-nuclear. My DH was employed in the power industry all his working life.

What does worry me about use of nuclear power is the safe disposal of waste. Saying that very little waste is generated is not really a solution.

Given my experience of the generating industry, another concern is the risk of human error. Far too many of them for comfort.

[troutmask]

disposal of waste is a problem, however safe storage of the waste until a way of disposing of it is found does apear to be a good solution. Even given the difficulties of early generators the problems with waste have been far less than other type of energy generation.
Human error in any industry is of concern. My experience was as a national trade union official in the energy industry and I must say that the nuclear industry has the highest safety standards of any of the indusrties I can across, particularly compared to gas, oil and hydro.
I just feel that many so called "geens" seem to have developed a knee jerk anti nuclear stance in favour of "renewable" sources which are actually more damaging to the environment.

[Varan Komodosky]

I cannot believe this old rubbish has re-emerged. Sheesh! The cost of such a massive civil engineering project far outweighs it's benefits. Forget it. Won't happen, ever.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Varan Komodosky

I cannot believe this old rubbish has re-emerged. Sheesh! The cost of such a massive civil engineering project far outweighs it's benefits. Forget it. Won't happen, ever.

I'm inclined to agree they'll probably haul it all over in public to scare the environmentally conscious to then come to visibly and publically come to the conclusion that it's too damaging to the environment to then push for more nuclear 'because it's less damaging'- call me cynical if you like....!

[xestop1]

I must admit that that idea did cross my mind too - fellow cynic?

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by xestop1

I must admit that that idea did cross my mind too - fellow cynic?

Welcome to the forum

[troutmask]

I hope you are right, as at present unless there is a absolutly massive reduction of energy use we need to replace the 20% of energy presently generated by old and outdated nuclear generation with something. If nuclear isn't an option then what exactly is?
i am seriously afraid that the panic created everytime any one proposes new nuclear generators being built in the UK will result in some massive, costly and environmentally damaging "green" solutions being built for votes. Witness the growth in wind farms; costly, ineffective and damaging to the environment; only being built because of the votes that this government see's in being "green".
The environmental movement (which I used to count myself a member of) has been captured by the anti-science brigade and this may lead to all sorts of irrational solutions (like this barrage) being given the go ahead.

[tabbykitten]

I was down in Cardiff Bay last weekend. That whole development does seem to have been a success, despite the scare mongers.

I've also visited Yorkshire recently and the wind turbines on the moors certainly don't add to the environment. I also saw the huge cross country gas pipeline that was being dug. Apparently it will not be detrimental to the environment but the cost was out of this world.

We just have to accept that cheap renewable energy is a necessity but I will always be concerned about safety factors on nuclear waste and accidents in power stations

[vipper]

Originally Posted by xestop1

I must admit that that idea did cross my mind too - fellow cynic?

Suddenly I feel so at home....

Do we know what sort of barrage, I assume a floating tidal one?

My somewhat noddy understanding of these units, probably based on watching Tomorrows World, is that they float on water, as long as they are not the sort that create lagoons. How does that have a hugely detrimental affect on wildlife. Or am I totally and utterly wrong and the plan is flood half the severn estuary?

[Mr Mag00]

Do we know what sort of barrage, I assume a floating tidal one?

My somewhat noddy understanding of these units, probably based on watching Tomorrows World, is that they float on water, as long as they are not the sort that create lagoons. How does that have a hugely detrimental affect on wildlife. Or am I totally and utterly wrong and the plan is flood half the severn estuary?

sorry wrong, nothing floating. A massive barrage attached to the bottom allowing water up streaming holding it to create a head of water and then allowing to escape through turbines, hence generating electricity.

I studied this proposal in the late 80's for my Geog A level, as it was proposed back then too, but they were going to put a road on it! The ideas for a massive barrage were also developed by Adolf Hitler had he ever managed to get a foot hold on mainland Britain.

The same objections were raised then, 80's not Adolf, as now.
Along with the loss of habitat, damage to interesting geological sites, damage to spawning grounds, inability of fish to move upstream, there is the issue of heavy metal pollution which was a major objection way back then. There has been heavy industry, smelting etc in the region for hundreds of years in South Wales, Forest of Dean, Gloucester, Bristol and Avonmouth.
If i remember correctly the estuary doesn't actually clean itself the water just moves back and forth hence its interesting colour. The result of this is decades of heavy metal pollution trapped in the silt of the estuary. this alone will cost millions in attempting to clean up and may/will release contaminants into the open environment where as now they are quite nicely trapped away.

my take on the energy issue... reduce what we are using, turn off the tele' at the wall each night, i could go on!! instead of massive production each house should have a small generating unit built in, wind, solar, heat pumps not neccesarily taking you off the grid but heavily subsidising your energy needs, I am currently looking very deeply in to this for my own home and businesses.

[tabbykitten]

The tidal range in that area is one of the greatest (difference between high and low tide) in the world - hence the amazing Severn Bore. This is the attraction I think of building the barrage there. There are various plans further down the coast in West Wales to construct floating lagoons as a means of using tidal power. These are less efficient but don't have a negative effect on local wild life.

I agree that the answer is to reduce energy used. I notice that even Lidl are now selling small emergency generators and that the price of these is coming down. I assume that these are petrol or diesel driven though.

I'm still not entirely happy about the development of nuclear energy(see earlier discussions) The waste just has to be efficiently handled. We will never be without radio active waste as the health service genarates so much of it. If I remembe correctly the last problem in this country with radioactive waste was when a road vehicle, carrying waste to bury, leaked some of its contents across quite a large area.

[Hawkwind]

I agree with you Tabbykitten, nuclear energy is not the answer for our lust for power. Apart from the chances of radiation leaks and threats from terrorists, disposal of the waste which stays radioactive for centuries is a huge problem.
Renewable energy is the only answer but the Severn Barrage proposal would be an enviromental catasrophe. ( See my earlier posting ).
By the way I was watching GMTV earlier today and there was a news item about Global Warming. I was amazed when a scientist who was on the programme said that the Sun gives off enough solar energy in one day to keep our whole planet supplied with electricity for hundreds of years, but we do'nt have the technology to harness it yet.
Maybe later on this century this will be the answer to the enviromental crisis we are facing.

Hawkwind....

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by troutmask

Can't see how a barrage that will cost millions, destroy a unique environment (the Severn Bore) and generate little in the way of energy can be described as the "lesser evil" when compared to a non polluting, safe energy source like nuclear power. unless you are another victim of the continued campaigns of misinormation against nuclear technology.
We need energy, we need low carbon generatation, we need a reliable source thatwill not destroy the environment. Nuclear can meet all these requirements.

Trout Mask Replica, good album.

I agree about Nuclear and am against the proposed barrage but would like to see more being done with wave/tidal power. Bring back "Salter's Ducks", they were so efficient that Thatcher's government turned them down. Don't what happened next, think the designs were sold to Westingshouse in the USA, they design & build Nuclear Power ststions.

We are an island for gods sake! Why are we not using wave/tidal power, are there still too many vested interests to deal with. Wave/Tidal Energy has been shown to be far more efficient than Nuclear Energy, after all, it's with us 24/7 365/6 days a year.

[nightshade]

There is a film (the name of which I have forgotten) being publicised byAl Gore
which may well change a lot of peoples thinking on this subject