Petition - Snaring in Scotland

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by hunterswind

Would just like to ask everyone here what they would do when you are loosing Lambs every night to foxes.

1. Let the foxes have a good feed !!!

2. Put down legal Snares.

3. Shoot the foxes at night even though you have not had a good nights sleep for ages ?

In 30 years of using thousands of snares I can remember catching 1 Roe deer by the foot where the stopper had slipped ( stopper prevents the snare from fully closing) as I check my snares every day the Roe was released alive and well.

I do understand people nowadays are far removed from the country and due to the likes of Bill Oddie educated in a fluffy bunny kind of way. Maybe its time for a program like Out of Town to come out again.

Andy

Frankly I'd shoot them - if you had a good lamping session once a week you wouldnt need to be out every night, though i agree that the use of stopped snares is legal and sometimes neccesary.

That said i'm suprised you are loosing that many lambs to foxes (I know you lose a few) - what kind of numbers are you talking about ?

[hunterswind]

.Last year 7, 2 week old lambs so not new borns. We did try lamping but there are to many armatures shooting round here and missing them so the foxes are shy. Snares did the trick had 3 vixens and a dog within the week and the lamb kills stopped

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by hunterswind

.Last year 7, 2 week old lambs so not new borns. We did try lamping but there are to many armatures shooting round here and missing them so the foxes are shy. Snares did the trick had 3 vixens and a dog within the week and the lamb kills stopped

From the research I've read on sheep farming 7 is high (unless you have 7000 sheep i guess! ). Im not accusing you of lying here and trying not to come across as condesending, just to be clear, but two papers I have to hand show 'losses to foxes were 0.53%' and another source: 'over Scotland losses over 4 years were 0.6-1.8%.' A lot of Fox 'kills' are actually cases of scavenging on still born or those that have died from the cold/poor mothers.

[eeyore]

actually based on those figures 7 would require 1400 sheep but i see your point. In my experience it depends a lot on what other food sources are available , and the breed of sheep as some ewes are much more protective than others, plus of course on the size and vigour of the individual Fox.

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by eeyore

actually based on those figures 7 would require 1400 sheep but i see your point. In my experience it depends a lot on what other food sources are available , and the breed of sheep as some ewes are much more protective than others, plus of course on the size and vigour of the individual Fox.

woops apologies for the bad maths there. The factors you mention would make sense too. A small Fox probably wouldn't take on a protective mother, but equally a large strong Fox with little other food would have a go at an unprotected lamb. But is 7 out of 1400 that significant, surely loses to illness/cold etc are worse? or am I wrong?

[Amylou]

Originally Posted by hunterswind

.Snares did the trick had 3 vixens and a dog within the week and the lamb kills stopped

A dog...? Was it a wild dog or a pet dog? If it was a pet dog gone astray did you find out where it was from? Im just asking btw. Im on the fence about this whole subject as i know yuo need to protect your flock. But i dont like snarea. Shooting is better.

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by Amylou

A dog...? Was it a wild dog or a pet dog? If it was a pet dog gone astray did you find out where it was from? Im just asking btw. Im on the fence about this whole subject as i know yuo need to protect your flock. But i dont like snarea. Shooting is better.

dog=male Fox

[Amylou]

Ah right. Wasnt clear! (well to someone like me who see's pet dogs more than Fox dogs)

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

woops apologies for the bad maths there. The factors you mention would make sense too. A small Fox probably wouldn't take on a protective mother, but equally a large strong Fox with little other food would have a go at an unprotected lamb. But is 7 out of 1400 that significant, surely loses to illness/cold etc are worse? or am I wrong?

possibly - but we dont know for sure how many sheep hunterswind has - it may be quite a small flock (many are less than 100) , in that case the loss of seven lambs would be between 6 and 10%

also its not the numbers as a proportion of the whole flock that matters so much as the proportion of lambs born - especially as many sheep farmers make most of their money on breeding for sale.

[flowerofedin]

Right, let's start from the beginning, shall we? 1) Yes, even sheep, cows, bulls, rams and horses get caught in these evil, primitive and inhumane traps. They suffer too. 2) The suffering is intense. Ever thought that animals suffer pain too? ...Oh yes. 3) It is banned in most other European Countries. Only the UK stands alone. Man's untold selfishness has no place in a civilised society and... HANGING IS STILL LEGAL IN SCOTLAND

Annabel

[Dogghound]

After reading this thread, i think its clear some posters might benifit by making their own forum called wildaboutfarming, because they arnt wildaboutbritain or its wildlife just cutting costs to farming. Its sad, this thread should be about aiding the ban for these awful things. I for one think they should be banned. Foxes arnt the main cause of lamb deaths.

[eeyore]

Stopped snares have - suprisingly - a stop which gives them a minimum diameter - this stops them from tightening to suffocation point (the idea being to hold the Fox until it can be shot rather than to strangle it), and also stops larger animals from being caught by the foot , and smaller ones being caught at all.

Also a responsible keeper/farmer/warden etc checks his line twice a day - so long as this best practice is followed (which it is in most cases) then snaring is as humane as any pest control can be - yes it isnt very nice but then neither is loosing your job / house/ livelehood by allowing your animals to be killed without limit by the local Fox population.

the use of locking snares (which can only tighten) is already banned, and bad practice such as not checking snare lines is also illegal under the animal cruelty laws.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

After reading this thread, i think its clear some posters might benifit by making their own forum called wildaboutfarming, because they arnt wildaboutbritain or its wildlife just cutting costs to farming. Its sad, this thread should be about aiding the ban for these awful things. I for one think they should be banned. Foxes arnt the main cause of lamb deaths.

But a lot of farmers are also interested in wildlife and are perfectly entitled to express thier views on any topic which comes up on these boards - I am actually not a farmer but work in conservation and sometimes have at points in my career had to engage in Fox control to protect schedule one ground nesting birds.

I am also opposed to the ban because it is unworkable and impossible to police.

A fact of forum life is that people arent going to agree - and suggesting that everyone who doesnt agree with a particular view point should leave is ridiculous - How would you feel if it was suggested that this thread shows that some people should leave and start a forum entitled wildaboutanimalrights because they arent in touch with the realities of the countryside. I'm not actually suggesting any such thing but I doubt you'd be very happy if someone did.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by eeyore

Stopped snares have - suprisingly - a stop which gives them a minimum diameter - this stops them from tightening to suffocation point (the idea being to hold the Fox until it can be shot rather than to strangle it), and also stops larger animals from being caught by the foot , and smaller ones being caught at all.

So the Fox is just going to sit there with the snare round its neck etc and not move? I think the fact the Fox will be pulling like hell to escape will cause considerable damge and stress. Perhaps the others have been banned but these should too.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

So the Fox is just going to sit there with the snare round its neck etc and not move? I think the fact the Fox will be pulling like hell to escape will cause considerable damge and stress. Perhaps the others have been banned but these should too.

Actually my experience is that one a Fox has pulled a few times and realised that it cant get away it does indeed sit down and wait. (the oxford university wildcru used a stopped snare to capture foxes to be radio tagged and released and this was also their experience)

Rabbits and hares will indeed run in circles and strangle themselves but foxes appear to be intelligent enough not to do this.

No form of pest control is ever going to be pleasant - the most humane is probably shooting by expert marksmen or control by a long dog running down a lamp beam, but even these arent nice, pleasant or fluffy - however the harsh reality is that foxes do sometimes need to be controlled.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by eeyore

But a lot of farmers are also interested in wildlife and are perfectly entitled to express thier views on any topic which comes up on these boards - I am actually not a farmer but work in conservation and sometimes have at points in my career had to engage in Fox control to protect schedule one ground nesting birds.

I am also opposed to the ban because it is unworkable and impossible to police.

A fact of forum life is that people arent going to agree - and suggesting that everyone who doesnt agree with a particular view point should leave is ridiculous - How would you feel if it was suggested that this thread shows that some people should leave and start a forum entitled wildaboutanimalrights because they arent in touch with the realities of the countryside. I'm not actually suggesting any such thing but I doubt you'd be very happy if someone did.

I agree with your second point on forum rules and interesting points on the post above i can over-react. But regarding farmers and wildlife most farmers i meet are only doing it because of money and no general love, most farmers on here only post on fieldsports or about Badger tb, Fox hunting etc, in which they dont particularly want to live alongside wildlife but destroy it due to it being cheaper and quicker. These members very rarely post on other forums, like the bird, mammal, fungi forums etc. Not saying this is all farmers, but a large majority are not bothered.

[stripee]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

I agree with your second point on forum rules and interesting points on the post above i can over-react. But regarding farmers and wildlife most farmers i meet are only doing it because of money and no general love, most farmers on here only post on fieldsports or about Badger tb, Fox hunting etc, in which they dont particularly want to live alongside wildlife but destroy it due to it being cheaper and quicker. These members very rarely post on other forums, like the bird, mammal, fungi forums etc. Not saying this is all farmers, but a large majority are not bothered.

How I agree, Dogghound, I can point directly to 3 neighbouring farms who are not remotely interested in wildlife, they rely on the "poor farmer" struggling along, but in fact all 3 of these farms are rich, building houses for relatives, and into industrialising the countryside at every opportunity and not caring two hoots about any detrimental effect there may be on their "serf" neighbours. They will snare and shoot anything and everything with no compunction. On the other hand, I have some really nice thoughtful farming neighbours, but they tend not to be the "go-getting" ones I have come to the conclusion that wildlife is not safe in the hands of many farmers. Like it or not on this forum, that's my opinion from many years of living right in the middle of a quite remote farming community.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

These members very rarely post on other forums, like the bird, mammal, fungi forums etc. Not saying this is all farmers, but a large majority are not bothered.

That could also be said of certain animal rights activists (though admittedly not you and not all of the others) - a number of a vareity of interest groups exist soley on forums such as this to argue their point.

If some farmers arent bothered about wildlife then they need to be persuaded otherwise , and the only way this will happen is if conservationists keep a dialogue open with them - as i said higher up (or possibly on a similar thread ) drawing battle lines with them on the otherside is not productive or useful.

[stripee]

Originally Posted by eeyore

That could also be said of certain animal rights activists (though admittedly not you and not all of the others) - a number of a vareity of interest groups exist soley on forums such as this to argue their point.

If some farmers arent bothered about wildlife then they need to be persuaded otherwise , and the only way this will happen is if conservationists keep a dialogue open with them - as i said higher up (or possibly on a similar thread ) drawing battle lines with them on the otherside is not productive or useful.

The trouble is with the big business type of farmer who isn't interested in wildlife and sees no use for it except trouble and reduced profits. The only thing that works is less carrot and more stick, the ones who are sympathetic can be persuaded.

[flowerofedin]

Eeyore, your ground nesting birds will still be ground nesting birds when snares are banned. This is natural predation, and happens in countries where snares are already banned. Most of Europe has banned snares, and the cruelty involved in keeping these evil contraptions just doesn't bear thinking about.

For the rest of you, the petition is still valid until the end of February, and the new Website is well and truly open for business. Just copy either of the links in my signature into your browser.

Annabel

[flowerofedin]

NEWSFLASH - SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT TO ANNOUNCE VERDICT ON SNARE BAN ON 20 FEBRUARY

We urgently need your help in a final push to influence the Minister's imminent decision.
This will be the first major test of whether our new Scottish Government really cares about animal welfare.

from an email I have just received... and I really hope all my work has not been in vain...

Annabel

[hunterswind]

Alex Salmond will not ban snares thats a fact. The SNP are realy working to help rural business not hinder us. Will reply to the other posts tomorrow.