Petition - Snaring in Scotland

[almostnormal]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

Controlling one species to save another is equally hair-brained. Why not let nature be nature. Just as SNH's attempts to control the Hedgehog on the Uist Islands was totally without founding... and we proved it...

here's some science contrary to your statement.

The importance of the introduced Hedgehog (Erinaceus europaeus) as a predator of the eggs of waders (Charadrii) on machair in South Uist, Scotland

D. B. Jacksona and R. E. Green, , b
a Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, Dunedin House, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK
b Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and Conservation Biology Group, Department of Zoology, University of Cambridge, Downing St, Cambridge CB2 3EJ, UK
Received 6 June 1999; revised 3 August 1999; accepted 5 August 1999.


Abstract

Populations of waders (Charadrii) on machair habitats on the island of South Uist were counted and wader nests were monitored to determine nest success and causes of failure. There were large declines in wader numbers and nest success following the spread of the introduced Hedgehog throughout the island. Predation of wader eggs by Hedgehogs was frequent, but susceptibility varied among wader species, being between 0 and 60% of the nests started. Wader species that were susceptible to Hedgehog predation tended to suffer larger population declines than those that were less susceptible, with the exception that the ringed plover (Charadrius hiaticula) population declined markedly even though their nests were depredated by Hedgehogs infrequently. A combined analysis of mark-resighting and radio-tracking data produced an average Hedgehog population density estimate of 57 adults km−2. It was estimated that wader eggs only provided 0.7–5.5% of the energy requirements of Hedgehogs, even during the season when most eggs were taken. From this it is argued that the abundance of Hedgehogs and the intensity of their predation on wader eggs are unlikely to diminish in response to wader population declines. Unless some presently unidentified density-dependent mechanism compensates for low nest success, local extinctions of susceptible wader species are likely if no action is taken to reduce Hedgehog predation. This appears to be the first documented case of Hedgehogs threatening an internationally important bird population with regional extinction.

and then the proof that removing Hedgehogs works on a trial basis

Experimental removal of introduced Hedgehogs improves wader nest success in the Western Isles, Scotland
Digger B. JacksonRoyal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK
Correspondence: Digger B. Jackson, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK (e-mailDigger.Jackson@ RSPB.org.uk).
Summary
1. Introduced predators are a major threat to island avifaunas world-wide. In the Western Isles of Scotland, recently introduced Hedgehogs Erinaceus europaeus have become a serious predator of bird eggs and are an important cause of declines of some waders (Charadrii).

2. Experiments at two sites in 1998 measured the effect on wader nest success resulting from Hedgehog removal from fenced exclosures. The nest success of waders inside the plots (where Hedgehog densities were zero or low) was approximately 2·4 times that of birds nesting in the adjacent control areas (where Hedgehog densities were high). There was no evidence of a compensatory increase in egg loss to native avian predators.

3. The experiment was an integral part of a research programme to support wader conservation efforts. On the basis of the experiment it can be predicted that the removal of Hedgehogs on a larger scale would result in a large increase in nest success.

4. The study also tested the practicalities of using relatively cheap fences against Hedgehogs. Fences were generally effective, but on dry sandy ground Rabbits Oryctolagus cuniculus burrowed under fences, enabling some Hedgehogs to re-enter plots. Well-designed fences could be used as a conservation tool, both as a barrier to protect key sites, and to aid the trapping and removal of Hedgehogs. However, fences cannot be seen as a long-term solution to the problem.

5. Radio-tagged Hedgehogs removed from the plots and released nearby all attempted to re-enter the plots. Two tracking methods revealed that displaced Hedgehogs followed fences for distances up to 500 m looking for an entry point. There was no evidence that Hedgehogs were able, or even attempted, to climb over or dig under fences.

6. The establishment of Hedgehogs in the Western Isles provides an example of a threat to biodiversity following human-mediated redistribution of a species native to the UK to parts of the UK (Scottish islands) outside the species' natural range, an activity not currently prohibited by law. Policy action to deter or control species introduction should consider ecological range even within national boundaries.

[flowerofedin]

Thankyou, Kerry. If we could only leave things alone, as they were, as nature intended. We're not special, although we seem to think we are. Are we REALLY so arrogant to think we ALWAYS have to be right ALL of the time?

Humans are fallible and therefore vulnerable to the inevitable accusation of being arrogant and selfish

Annabel

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by almostnormal

here's some science contrary to your statement.

The importance of the introduced Hedgehog (Erinaceus europaeus) as a predator of the eggs of waders (Charadrii) on machair in South Uist, Scotland

D. B. Jacksona and R. E. Green, , b
a Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, Dunedin House, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK
b Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and Conservation Biology Group, Department of Zoology, University of Cambridge, Downing St, Cambridge CB2 3EJ, UK
Received 6 June 1999; revised 3 August 1999; accepted 5 August 1999.


Abstract

Populations of waders (Charadrii) on machair habitats on the island of South Uist were counted and wader nests were monitored to determine nest success and causes of failure. There were large declines in wader numbers and nest success following the spread of the introduced Hedgehog throughout the island. Predation of wader eggs by Hedgehogs was frequent, but susceptibility varied among wader species, being between 0 and 60% of the nests started. Wader species that were susceptible to Hedgehog predation tended to suffer larger population declines than those that were less susceptible, with the exception that the ringed plover (Charadrius hiaticula) population declined markedly even though their nests were depredated by Hedgehogs infrequently. A combined analysis of mark-resighting and radio-tracking data produced an average Hedgehog population density estimate of 57 adults km−2. It was estimated that wader eggs only provided 0.7–5.5% of the energy requirements of Hedgehogs, even during the season when most eggs were taken. From this it is argued that the abundance of Hedgehogs and the intensity of their predation on wader eggs are unlikely to diminish in response to wader population declines. Unless some presently unidentified density-dependent mechanism compensates for low nest success, local extinctions of susceptible wader species are likely if no action is taken to reduce Hedgehog predation. This appears to be the first documented case of Hedgehogs threatening an internationally important bird population with regional extinction.

and then the proof that removing Hedgehogs works on a trial basis

Experimental removal of introduced Hedgehogs improves wader nest success in the Western Isles, Scotland
Digger B. JacksonRoyal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK
Correspondence: Digger B. Jackson, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, Scottish Headquarters, 25 Ravelston Terrace, Edinburgh EH4 3TP, UK (e-mailDigger.Jackson@ RSPB.org.uk).
Summary
1. Introduced predators are a major threat to island avifaunas world-wide. In the Western Isles of Scotland, recently introduced Hedgehogs Erinaceus europaeus have become a serious predator of bird eggs and are an important cause of declines of some waders (Charadrii).

2. Experiments at two sites in 1998 measured the effect on wader nest success resulting from Hedgehog removal from fenced exclosures. The nest success of waders inside the plots (where Hedgehog densities were zero or low) was approximately 2·4 times that of birds nesting in the adjacent control areas (where Hedgehog densities were high). There was no evidence of a compensatory increase in egg loss to native avian predators.

3. The experiment was an integral part of a research programme to support wader conservation efforts. On the basis of the experiment it can be predicted that the removal of Hedgehogs on a larger scale would result in a large increase in nest success.

4. The study also tested the practicalities of using relatively cheap fences against Hedgehogs. Fences were generally effective, but on dry sandy ground Rabbits Oryctolagus cuniculus burrowed under fences, enabling some Hedgehogs to re-enter plots. Well-designed fences could be used as a conservation tool, both as a barrier to protect key sites, and to aid the trapping and removal of Hedgehogs. However, fences cannot be seen as a long-term solution to the problem.

5. Radio-tagged Hedgehogs removed from the plots and released nearby all attempted to re-enter the plots. Two tracking methods revealed that displaced Hedgehogs followed fences for distances up to 500 m looking for an entry point. There was no evidence that Hedgehogs were able, or even attempted, to climb over or dig under fences.

6. The establishment of Hedgehogs in the Western Isles provides an example of a threat to biodiversity following human-mediated redistribution of a species native to the UK to parts of the UK (Scottish islands) outside the species' natural range, an activity not currently prohibited by law. Policy action to deter or control species introduction should consider ecological range even within national boundaries.

I'm not even going to read that. It's a report by the RSPB who wanted the cull in the first place.

[almostnormal]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

I'm not even going to read that. It's a report by the RSPB who wanted the cull in the first place.

yes, the rspb was a partner in the research, but the report was backed with several years of research science, and if you refuse to look at the science how can you possible say you've proven that Hedgehogs aren't doing any damage?

[flowerofedin]

And who was proved wrong I wonder, about the cull that Hedgehogs couldn't be moved to the mainland? Why should I read something I've already been over in the Office?

[almostnormal]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

And who was proved wrong I wonder, about the cull that Hedgehogs couldn't be moved to the mainland? Why should I read something I've already been over in the Office?

so instead of taking account of the science regarding Hedgehog predation of groung nesting birds you're choosing to ignore it?

as far as i'm aware it was snh that decided to cull rather than move Hedgehogs, and again their decision was backed with science. i understand that the Hedgehogs moved from uist are being monitored, but have yet to find any research into the effect they are having on the native population they are dsiplacing.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

I'm not even going to read that. It's a report by the RSPB who wanted the cull in the first place.

But its the RSPB who pays for people to spend years out of their life to study all sorts of wildlife!! we would be sooooo much worse off without them

Its a real shame that you dismiss the people who have worked so hard to protect these breeding birds out of hand assuming that they are somehow evil and corrupt because they have spotted a real problem.

The RSPB only wanted the cull because they
a) had proof that Hedgehogs were munching down the easy prey that is eggs on the ground thereby doing serious damage that threatened whole populations of birds
b)because they thought it was kinder to put down a wild animal rather than subject it to the terrifying confinement and ear splitting noise involved in live capture and release into unfamiliar environments with previously unknown predators and dangers such as Badgers and busy roads, where they may fail to survive and die slowly.

As it is it has been shown that Hedgehogs can survive well, so they are changing their removal method. Though I'm still not certain its fair to subject a wild animal to that kind of stress for a selfish human desire to 'help' animals.....

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

And who was proved wrong I wonder, about the cull that Hedgehogs couldn't be moved to the mainland? Why should I read something I've already been over in the Office?

it wasn't that it was thought they 'couldn't' be moved but more that it was cruel to.

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

it wasn't that it was thought they 'couldn't' be moved but more that it was cruel to.

.....And that was proved to be wrong by UHR, which included AfA as one of the Organisations involved. Like most other Organisations reports are commonly central to the work I help out with. I'm not here to argue with anyone. I just want to make sure that, although we strayed from the subject I started this thread about today, that we all know that people are entitled to their opinions whether they agree or disagree with what has been said before, just as you can sign or not sign...it's still a free country. My temper is still in tact, valid points have been raised, and I can't be right all the time, but neither am I apologising for any lack of knowledge, or admitting to anything I can't follow up. If I got some of the facts wrong then that's my bad memory and I will apologise for that.
We can only learn from our experiences.

Let's just leave it at that, shall we? The link is still there for signing, and it can be signed up til November 30th

Annabel

[Kerry]

I think that the two opposing views of Gill and Eeyore on snares are a good example of people from the ecology movement, who have hands on experience, coming at the subject from their own personal perspective. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I think that the two opposing views of Gill and Eeyore on snares are a good example of people from the ecology movement, who have hands on experience, coming at the subject from their own personal perspective. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

You're absolutely right, Kerry. We should now encourage other people to sign this, but not try to force their hand. We have had views for the ban and views against. Those against though, should state why they're not signing so that we can all learn about the arguments from both sides. It could turn into an interesting debate, but please, let's not get quite so heated, yeah?

Annabel

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I think that the two opposing views of Gill and Eeyore on snares are a good example of people from the ecology movement, who have hands on experience, coming at the subject from their own personal perspective. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

quite so , I certainly respect gills knowledge and skills as an ecologist just as i hope she respects mine as a practical conservation manager. Life would be very boring if we all agreed all the time I think it was james madison who said that "the key to democracy was that you can honourably hold fundamentally different and oposed views and yet still work together for the common good" - I think that what we have with wab is a true demonstration of that.

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by eeyore

quite so , I certainly respect gills knowledge and skills as an ecologist just as i hope she respects mine as a practical conservation manager. Life would be very boring if we all agreed all the time I think it was james madison who said that "the key to democracy was that you can honourably hold fundamentally different and oposed views and yet still work together for the common good" - I think that what we have with wab is a true demonstration of that.

But it would be nice if everyone just agreed with me!

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

But it would be nice if everyone just agreed with me!

But I doubt that is ever likely to happen. It would indeed be a very dull world if it did, which adds to the colour of the Message Board

Annabel

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

But I doubt that is ever likely to happen. It would indeed be a very dull world if it did, which adds to the colour of the Message Board

Annabel

Dull but cruelty free.

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Dull but cruelty free.

Agreed, and there would be no need for organisations such as AfA and the SSPCA. We'd be happy but out of a job!

[The Woodman]

Why not ban Sitka Spruce? I for one would more more than happy to sign a petition......

I can think of no more pleasureable activity than marking a selective first thinning - I don't think!

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

Why not ban Sitka Spruce? I for one would more more than happy to sign a petition......

I can think of no more pleasureable activity than marking a selective first thinning - I don't think!

So here's someone else who can live with the mindless cruelty inflicted on wildlife caught in snares. Of course that's up to him. No one's forcing you

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

Why not ban Sitka Spruce?

I'd definitely go with that - the only problem is what to do with the logs now that the bottom has dropped out of the pulp market (20 quid a ton at the roadside last time i looked), its prety useless for everything else.

I dont think snaring would be an effective way to control it though

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I'd definitely go with that - the only problem is what to do with the logs now that the bottom has dropped out of the pulp market (20 quid a ton at the roadside last time i looked), its prety useless for everything else.

I dont think snaring would be an effective way to control it though

It probably isn't, and everyone has their own viewpoint. Thank you all who have signed this, and to those who don't feel they can, well I'm sure there are plenty more people who will offer their support to this petition.

As for enforcement of the law, well I'm no expert and have no answers, but those who continue to use them surely must have a level of guilty conscience which may prevent them from using them again....if not for their sake, then for the animals' sakes, and would they say that if it were their own dog caught up in one of these?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

It probably isn't, and everyone has their own viewpoint. Thank you all who have signed this, and to those who don't feel they can, well I'm sure there are plenty more people who will offer their support to this petition.

As for enforcement of the law, well I'm no expert and have no answers, but those who continue to use them surely