Petition - Snaring in Scotland

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Esmo

Almost normal,
In Post 19 you say :-
it'd have to be police enforced and i don't know how your local force is doing but ours struggles as it is, i reckon searching out illegal snares would be too much for our single solitary wildlife officer.

In Post 22 you say
i know that the police wouldn't be crawling through the bushes on their hands and knees trying to find illegal snares.

You do seem to have missed the point.
If you want snares banned, then sign the petition – enforcement is someone elses problem.
If you don’t want them banned, then no problem, do nothing.
But please, there are people who care about our wildlife and how it’s treated. Don’t put them down. They mean well and should be encouraged.

P.S. Keith, I like you’re saying “ Make a noise – make a difference “

whats the point in a ban which isnt enforced ? - fine if you want to see snares banned then sign the petition , it wont acheive anything but hey it will make you feel better

But dont assume that those of us who realise that it is a pointless waste of time and effort dont care about wildlife - we do its just that i for one would prefer to see wildlife legislation adequately enforced - and the first step on that road is producing legislation which is actually enforcable - saying that enforcement is someone elses problem does nothing to encourage those charged with enforcing the law to take wildlife crime seriously.

and even if websites and instructions for making a snare could be banned - which they cant - it isnt difficult , takes about 30 seconds , and every poacher and gamekeeper in the land already knows how or can find someone who does. - and you cant ban the materials used in their production because that is essentially a bit of wire (picture wire, electrical flex etc) and a sharpened stick.

by all means campaign for wildlife to be treated better but it does help your chances of success if you opperate in the real world.

[almostnormal]

Originally Posted by Esmo

Almost normal,
In Post 19 you say :-
it'd have to be police enforced and i don't know how your local force is doing but ours struggles as it is, i reckon searching out illegal snares would be too much for our single solitary wildlife officer.

In Post 22 you say
i know that the police wouldn't be crawling through the bushes on their hands and knees trying to find illegal snares.

You do seem to have missed the point.
If you want snares banned, then sign the petition – enforcement is someone elses problem.
If you don’t want them banned, then no problem, do nothing.
But please, there are people who care about our wildlife and how it’s treated. Don’t put them down. They mean well and should be encouraged.

P.S. Keith, I like you’re saying “ Make a noise – make a difference “

er no, i haven't. my point was, and again apparently i haven't put it well, that in order to be successful a ban would need to be police enforced, which clearly isn't going to happen because there are not enough police to enforce it. even to attempt to catch some of them would require a huge amount of effort.

at no point have i suggested that anyone not sign the petition, which i have in fact already signed, and i wasn't putting anyone down, or indeed discouraging them. my apologies if that's how it read.

[flowerofedin]

The general point here is that snares are wrong and they need to be banned. I am delighted to be an active member of AfA and this forum, and I'm sorry I wen't off for a while but I'm back now.... for keeps. Anyway, that aside, Britain seems to be about the only country which hasn't banned snares. The Petition, be it paper-based or on-line is another obvious way to get things noticed by the Public, and even if it serves no other purpose than to put the Public in the picture, then it has served its purpose. I am sure we can get them lots of signatures before November 30th. A big Thankyou to all who have already signed, printed off and forwarded on to friends. That's the one great thing about the Internet. The more widely this is spread about, the better.

Annabel

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Good post !!

"There are a lot of crimes out there sadly"

Yes. Well over 3000 new criminal offences since Zanu labour came to power. So obviously enforcement is relevant.

It is pointless making laws unless there is at least a will to enforce them.

I am probably a rare person on this forum in so much as I am "against" snares but I use them.

I use them because the government encourages me to !!

They are indiscriminate and can lead to lengthy suffering.

Hunting is discriminate and is over quickly.

Silly, silly Margaret

I don't understand. Why do you need snares at all? What are you trying to catch?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I don't understand. Why do you need snares at all? What are you trying to catch?

i would imagine its foxes as it is now illegal to hunt them with dogs (not that i ever accepted that as a good way of controlling them anyway) and more sailiently to use a longdog and a lamp if you dont have a firearm or dont have the time to be out every night with a lamp and a rifle snares are the only govt approved option

I know at least one wildlife trust which uses snares to control foxes - and actually so long as they are free running and checked twice daily it isnt that inhumane - at least with foxes which are inteligent enough to sit quietly once they realise they cant get away - the problem is the collateral damage in hares, deer (caught be the hoof) , domestic pets etc etc

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by eeyore

i would imagine its foxes as it is now illegal to hunt them with dogs (not that i ever accepted that as a good way of controlling them anyway) and more sailiently to use a longdog and a lamp if you dont have a firearm or dont have the time to be out every night with a lamp and a rifle snares are the only govt approved option

I know at least one wildlife trust which uses snares to control foxes - and actually so long as they are free running and checked twice daily it isnt that inhumane - at least with foxes which are inteligent enough to sit quietly once they realise they cant get away - the problem is the collateral damage in hares, deer (caught be the hoof) , domestic pets etc etc

Doesn't seem right to me, lamping can be very effective - even good old fashioned stalking or locating an earth and waiting. 'not having time' doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me for the reasons you illustrate.......

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Doesn't seem right to me, lamping can be very effective - even good old fashioned stalking or locating an earth and waiting. 'not having time' doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me for the reasons you illustrate.......

lamping can be very effective - assuming you have a firearms licence. The wildlife site in question was heathland and bordered on both sides by dense forestry blocks - you cant lamp in forestry (only works in open land) and locating earths would be a very dodgy proposition too. - anyway a Fox that is shot is just as dead as one which is snared - and the use of shotguns and light calibre rifles is more inhumane due to the high potential to maim - not everybody has a .338 full bore handy or the capability to use it.

under normal circumstances you could lamp on the heath - but this would grossly disturb the ground nesting birds they are aiming to protect - thus they were left with snaring as their only practical option. That said Although i dont support a blanket ban I would only want to see it used where there was a good reason - as above - and as a last resort. (incidentally they tried Fox proof fencing at great expense- the foxes tunneled under it at depth - and idiots cut it with tin snips)

[John D]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I don't understand. Why do you need snares at all? What are you trying to catch?

Snares are used widely for snaring hares. Once the 'hare run' is located a snare is set in a suitable location on the run (under a fence or branch of a bush.) Foxes are snared in a similar way. This method has been used out in the country for many years. Obviously it can be a slow and painful death for the animal which is snared. It is without doubt cruel!
John D

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by eeyore

lamping can be very effective - assuming you have a firearms licence. The wildlife site in question was heathland and bordered on both sides by dense forestry blocks - you cant lamp in forestry (only works in open land) and locating earths would be a very dodgy proposition too. - anyway a Fox that is shot is just as dead as one which is snared - and the use of shotguns and light calibre rifles is more inhumane due to the high potential to maim - not everybody has a .338 full bore handy or the capability to use it.

under normal circumstances you could lamp on the heath - but this would grossly disturb the ground nesting birds they are aiming to protect - thus they were left with snaring as their only practical option. That said Although i dont support a blanket ban I would only want to see it used where there was a good reason - as above - and as a last resort. (incidentally they tried Fox proof fencing at great expense- the foxes tunneled under it at depth - and idiots cut it with tin snips)

Surely if you don't have the equipment or licences you should employ someone who has.

Finding Fox earths is not difficult is just searching suitable habitat systematically, I have to do it to find Badger setts.

You'll have to come up with more than that to convince me!

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Surely if you don't have the equipment or licences you should employ someone who has.

Finding Fox earths is not difficult is just searching suitable habitat systematically, I have to do it to find Badger setts.

You'll have to come up with more than that to convince me!

the wildlife trust concerned did employ a part time game keeper - but they could not afford a full time one and even if they had he would have been faced by the same problems.

When the habitat concerned is dense un thinned sitka spruce there is no practical way of searching in systematically - or indeed searching it at all as there was no way of physically getting into large parts of the site. except with a chainsaw of course but i dont think the forestry people would have been too pleased about that.

anyway basically what i was saying was that in this case the trust had no other option, if there had been they would have taken it.

anyway we are heading off topic (again) what i was basically saying is that not only is a ban on snaring totally unworkable and unenforceable but it is also undesirable because sometimes they are a necessary evil.

much better i would say rather than drawing lines and choosing sides for conservation people to work with farmers and keepers to ensure that a good code of practice is followed , snares are only used where they absolutely must be , and that where they are they are checked on a regular basis.

if we want to tackle serious wildlife crime like Badger baiting , egg theivery, etc then the farmers and landowners are potentially our biggest ally - turning them into the enemy by implementing an emotively driven ban which is totally unenforceable and thus wont save one Fox/hare/Rabbit etc anyway is IMO shortsighted at the very least.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by eeyore

When the habitat concerned is dense un thinned sitka spruce there is no practical way of searching in systematically - or indeed searching it at all as there was no way of physically getting into large parts of the site. except with a chainsaw of course but i dont think the forestry people would have been too pleased about that.

.

Rubbish I crawl my way through all sorts of habitats like that - you just follow the tracks the animals use, it hurts- (though 8ft high bramble scrub hurts far more) - but its far from impossible..... My boss used to say its what seperates the men from the boys - though I'm not sure what that makes me.

Still far from convinced.....

There are all sorts of crimes on all sorts of levels. murder is a far bigger crime than someone nicking grandma smith's wallet. Doesn't mean the smaller crime shouldn't be prevented wherever possible or prosectued for even if the person was stealing just to eat, a necessary evil it might seem to them - but this doesn't make it ok.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Rubbish I crawl my way through all sorts of habitats like that - you just follow the tracks the animals use, it hurts- (though 8ft high bramble scrub hurts far more) - but its far from impossible..... My boss used to say its what seperates the men from the boys - though I'm not sure what that makes me.

as i was there and you werent thats a bit of a harsh judgement - and also crawling through to survey is one thing , crawling through equiped with the nets , shovels, firearms etc necessary to dig an earth, then finding all the entrances, and digging it all the while on your belly or at best in a prenatal crouch is something else again.

and fitting doing that into a day which starts at 4am and ends at about 8pm (with on call duty during the off period) on your own, while also you are patrolling against egg theives, checking the trap lines (larsen and fenn), doing practical repair to the hides, running the visitor centre, interpreting the reserve for visitors , policing idiot behavior, surveying 3 red data book bird species , a butterfly transect and an orchid quadrile is something else entirely

anyway lets just agree to disagree on this before this thread goes the way of the tother.

edit: and i agree with you about the crimes - but using snares is currently legal , and is likely to stay that way which in my view makes it okay as a distasteful last resort where you have no other realistic option.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by eeyore

as i was there and you werent thats a bit of a harsh judgement - and also crawling through to survey is one thing , crawling through equiped with the nets , shovels, firearms etc necessary to dig an earth, then finding all the entrances, and digging it all the while on your belly or at best in a prenatal crouch is something else again.

and fitting doing that into a day which starts at 4am and ends at about 8pm (with on call duty during the off period) on your own, while also you are patrolling against egg theives, checking the trap lines (larsen and fenn), doing practical repair to the hides, running the visitor centre, interpreting the reserve for visitors , policing idiot behavior, surveying 3 red data book bird species , a butterfly transect and an orchid quadrile is something else entirely

anyway lets just agree to disagree on this before this thread goes the way of the tother.

edit: and i agree with you about the crimes - but using snares is currently legal , and is likely to stay that way which in my view makes it okay as a distasteful last resort where you have no other realistic option.

I've done a fair amount of work in sitka spruce plantation and have worked much harder habitats too.

I don't think I could ever agree that snares are necessary sorry.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I've done a fair amount of work in sitka spruce plantation and have worked much harder habitats too.

I don't think I could ever agree that snares are necessary sorry.

I'm sure you have worked sitka and the high lord zombluglast alone knows what else - but like i said there is a difference between crawling through to survey and crawling through for the purposes of predator control.

I would also say that in a 15 year career i have only come across the one instance where they were necessary - but then again i have a full bore FAC - the obvious answer for those that dont but have a Fox problem used to be a lamp and a long dog - but sadly that isnt legal now , wheras snaring is , which I suspect is what deerhunter meant about them being the govts preffered option.

and we still come back to the fact that a Fox dug from an earth (or killed underground by a terrier, a Fox shot dead (or dying slowly of gangrene after encountering the edge of the shot cone) , and a Fox snared and bludgeoned or shot are each as dead as the others - I doubt it make much odds to the Fox - predator control in toto is the necessary evil - or not according to your point of view , and we have had that debate elsewhere already.

and it okay i'm not asking you to agree with me - just to agree to disagree

[C C]

A ban on snares will never stop their use. They are so easily made, and hard to detect. The majority of wildlife snaring atrocities, are those made by illegal snares. These are put down by people, with no care for the law, so i don't think a ban would meen anything to them.
Many of the new legal snares, are free running with a crimp. The crimp is squeezed in to place, this helps to stop foot hold grabs on animals, ie Deer.
I have never used snares, i also dislike their use. But i would rather know that people who do use them, are able to purchase the more humane type.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I don't understand. Why do you need snares at all? What are you trying to catch?

Foxes to both questions.

[flowerofedin]

Right, when everyone is quite finished, we now know the real reason why Eeyore won't sign. To me, that's his problem, and while the rest of us gets on with life, Eeyore will have to live with his conscience at some of the barbaric injuries these animals suffer for the sake of human selfishness. This is not a humane world we live in yet and it seems as though it won't be whether everyone follows Eeyore's example or not. Foxes, Badgers, deer, hares, Rabbits, dogs and cats ...yes innocent dogs and cats... animals we all know and love (or hate) are slaughtered inhumanely every time an animal dies in one of these barbaric traps set for human selfishness. The animal has done nothing and yet it pays the highest price. Why take it out on it? Oh and C C, there is NOTHING humane about a snare

Annabel

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

Right, when everyone is quite finished, we now know the real reason why Eeyore won't sign. To me, that's his problem, and while the rest of us gets on with life, Eeyore will have to live with his conscience at some of the barbaric injuries these animals suffer for the sake of human selfishness. This is not a humane world we live in yet and it seems as though it won't be whether everyone follows Eeyore's example or not. Foxes, Badgers, deer, hares, Rabbits, dogs and cats ...yes innocent dogs and cats... animals we all know and love (or hate) are slaughtered inhumanely every time an animal dies in one of these barbaric traps set for human selfishness. The animal has done nothing and yet it pays the highest price. Why take it out on it? Oh and C C, there is NOTHING humane about a snare

Annabel

I agree. It shows what a crazy world we live in when the government bans hunting of SOME animals and encourages snaring !!!

There will be an election one day !!!

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by flowerofedin

Right, when everyone is quite finished, we now know the real reason why Eeyore won't sign. To me, that's his problem, and while the rest of us gets on with life, Eeyore will have to live with his conscience at some of the barbaric injuries these animals suffer for the sake of human selfishness. This is not a humane world we live in yet and it seems as though it won't be whether everyone follows Eeyore's example or not. Foxes, Badgers, deer, hares, Rabbits, dogs and cats ...yes innocent dogs and cats... animals we all know and love (or hate) are slaughtered inhumanely every time an animal dies in one of these barbaric traps set for human selfishness. The animal has done nothing and yet it pays the highest price. Why take it out on it? Oh and C C, there is NOTHING humane about a snare

Annabel

did you actually read my post - i can live with my conscience at using snares once in 15 years to control foxes to protect rare ground nesting birds where there was no other alternative. ( im not sure how the preservation of such birds can be described as human selfishness)

also crimped snares do not kill at all they just hold the animal until it can be humanely despatched - and if such snares are checked twice a day then they are more humane than inexpert shooting , terrier use or den digging.

i wont sign the petiton because i believe that will actually make the situation worse by removing legal and humane snares such as these from the market leaving free running or worse the already locking illegal snares in common use.

also i would observe that if people followed my example and dedicated their careers to pragmatic conservation work operating in the real world and making real world compromises rather than staying in an idealistic ivory tower with no grounding in reality then yes the world would be a better place

[flowerofedin]

Originally Posted by eeyore

did you actually read my post - i can live with my conscience at using snares once in 15 years to control foxes to protect rare ground nesting birds where there was no other alternative. ( im not sure how the preservation of such birds can be described as human selfishness)

also crimped snares do not kill at all they just hold the animal until it can be humanely despatched - and if such snares are checked twice a day then they are more humane than inexpert shooting , terrier use or den digging.

i wont sign the petiton because i believe that will actually make the situation worse by removing legal and humane snares such as these from the market leaving free running or worse the already locking illegal snares in common use.

also i would observe that if people followed my example and dedicated their careers to pragmatic conservation work operating in the real world and making real world compromises rather than staying in an idealistic ivory tower with no grounding in reality then yes the world would be a better place

.....and that happening in reality is about as rare as hen's teeth. The reality is something COMPLETELY different. The rest of the world where snares are banned can't be wrong.

Controlling one species to save another is equally hair-brained. Why not let nature be nature. Just as SNH's attempts to control the Hedgehog on the Uist Islands was totally without founding... and we proved it...