flint

[freefeet]

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

Some years ago I read this in an American bow hunting magazine. The argument put forward was quite compelling and not disputed.

That's always the thing with a magazine article - it puts forward one point of view and is rarely open to dispute within the article.

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

Ermm, I'd be very surprised if any arrow could pass clean through several feet of elephant flesh 'and come out of the other side' intact or not - certainly not powered by a bow!

Have you actually seen anyone put any arrow, flint or steel 'clean through an elephant'? If you've seen it on the net, post us the links to substantiate your claim.

Here ya go...

YouTube - elephant penetration2

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

I also don't think arrows 'smash' their way through flesh - they cut!

There's more to an animal than flesh - there's bones too!

Arrows do not cut bone, they smash it! Single bevel broadheads - of the type that are used in the above elephant video - are specifically designed to "smash" bone apart with their rotating action. When the bone is smashed apart it then provides very little resistance upon the rest of the arrow and allows for far greater penetration.

Back to flint and glass... when i see someone knapping and with only the slightest incorrect pressure in the wrong place cracks apart the flint piece thus ruining it, i can't help but think, "what would happen if this hit a rib bone, leg bone or a shoulder blade?"

[mrmack]

whoops, what have i started....mack

[loripo]

All mrmack asked was where he could get flint to try knapping! I've seen Phil do it on Time Team and it's obvously a very skilled art. Some of the tools are really beautiful, and our ancestors were able to bring down mammoths with out the aid of modern metals. I believe flint can be hardened by fire too.

[freefeet]

Originally Posted by loripo

All mrmack asked was where he could get flint to try knapping! I've seen Phil do it on Time Team and it's obvously a very skilled art. Some of the tools are really beautiful, and our ancestors were able to bring down mammoths with out the aid of modern metals. I believe flint can be hardened by fire too.

I realise what Mr Mack asked, and i can't see that there's anything wrong with the thread drifting into a conversation about the effectiveness of flint tools.

I also agree it's a very skilled art and many beautiful trinkets and tools can be made with knapping.

And i agree that many animals have been "brought down" (to use your own terminology) by flint broadheads. My point was that we shouldn't be proclaiming them to be superior to modern metal broadheads.

We can't just go around "bringing animals down" any more, we're not Neanderthal, in the modern world we have to ensure that we kill animals effectively, cleanly and quickly.

I really can't see that a flint headed arrow can be anything like as durable and effective as a modern steel headed arrow. I'm happy to be proved wrong though.

[loripo]

I was not suggesting that we all go hunting with flint arrowheads. If you want to turn this thread into an argument then I will no longer contribute. I also object to your picking me up on my English terminology.
I'm sorry mrmack.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by freefeet

Here ya go...

YouTube - elephant penetration2

Bit disappointing really - I was kind of hoping for something more convincing. I didn't see an arrow pass clean through an elephant. A tank could have been substituted for the elephant and it would have looked much the same. Still, it was on Youtube, so it must have been authentic!

There's more to an animal than flesh - there's bones too!

You don't say! Yup, you're right - I've just checked my leg and there's certainly a bone in there somewhere!
;^)

Arrows do not cut bone, they smash it! Single bevel broadheads - of the type that are used in the above elephant video - are specifically designed to "smash" bone apart with their rotating action. When the bone is smashed apart it then provides very little resistance upon the rest of the arrow and allows for far greater penetration.

Pretty broad statement! What bone are we talking about being 'smashed apart' here - a rabbit's leg or elephant's skull?

I think you've been surfing the net and looking at Youtube too much!
;^)

Jim

[posie]

Oh dear, Oh dear Oh dear,... Why does anybody have to use arrows or any other ammunition to KILL unnecessarily.Some Human Beings are DESTRUCTIVE, that's all it is, destruction of a beautiful animal just for the sake of it. I thought elephants were protected, but obviously I'm wrong. I know I asked the question in the first place but I really did not know that elephants were being killed...

[ChrisJB]

Originally Posted by loripo

(Not sure if all materials used needed the property of conchoidal fracturing to give the sharp edges )
!

A concoidal fracture certainly is best, but not essential. Another silicon based material that was often used in the Stone Age was chert, which has a pretty unpredictable fracture. Whilst not as workable as flint, it occurs in large amounts in the Carboniferous Limestone in parts of Northern England and in other rocks as far north as Scotland. Where flint wasn't available it was a more than acceptable substitute. In some of the Mesolithic scatters where I live in the South Pennines, it has been found in reasonably large amounts.
Occasionally, rhyolite (a fine grained acidic igneous rock) was used as well.
And, I didn't realise such a subject could cultivate a debate of the like seen here. Grand.

Regards, Chris

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Venger

Mack, if you can't find flint you can always use glass (heavy green wine bottles work well - especially the base which is generally thicker, as long as its flat.)

It's easily available and you wont feel to bad if you mess it up

You might find this useful

YouTube - Flintknapping: Arrow Points From Bottle Bottoms, Practical Primitive

In the local museum (Malton, N Yorks) there is a section about a bloke who found loads of worked flints, then started to make his own, and the final exhibit is a beautiful tanged and barbed arrow head, made from blue glass.

It is a very good area for flints, I have found 8 in the last 5 years, you get an eye for it. Flat facets and so on catch the eye.

[posie]

It's that MRMACK, I knew he'd be trouble from the off...... but on a serious note....What tools do you need to do Knapping, Do they vary according to the material you use?........I found an object that looks like an old hand tool ( 3 inchesx1'5 inches)on our previous farm, but the stuff it's made of is more slate colour.