Hunting: From the hunters view

[salukiwhippet]

So how do they die in the absence of predators, which is the situation we have in the UK?

Where are deer bred for shooting in the UK? Apart from deer farms? And foxes? They were encouraged to breed by hunts pre-ban, by habitat management beneficial to biodiversity. I assume you have evidence and are not just making sweeping unproven claims?

James

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Tails4wagging

I dont believe deer starve. Nature has a way with culling and if the natural preditors were reintroduced the natural balance would continue. Many deer are bred for shooting and as well as foxes bred for hunting (yes they still do)

Sorry but your belief is very badly misplaced, very many deer do starve in the UK each year. Mike Tomkies books might prove an interesting read on this point.

In fact I would say that in the absence of an active culling programme the main population control mechanism in UK deer herd is starvation, although in some areas the motor car may prevail.

I am not entirely clear as to how you think deer are bred for shooting, certainly there is no captive breeding and release for shooting porogramme. There is no need for any such programme since deer populations are on the increase all over the UK. It is howwever true that deer stalking in some areas is a significant economic activity and that attempts are made to manage populations in support of that. Perhaps that is what you have in mind?

The debate on predator reintroduction has been covered elsewhere on the forums.

Cheers
mac

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Pat

IMHO there's no excuse for killing wildlife, nature would take it's own course without human beings interfering

Whilst respecting your point of view I actually have no problem at all with killing wildlife which I am going to eat, nor do I hesitate about putting down an injured animal - it is not always appropriate or compassionate to allow nature to take its course.

Regards
mac

[JLSeagull]

Originally Posted by Tails4wagging

I dont believe deer starve. Nature has a way with culling and if the natural preditors were reintroduced the natural balance would continue.

With the absence of natural predators deer do starve due to overgrazing in some areas. Also any animal that is old or injured and cannot feed properly will die a lingering death when there are no predators to take them quickly, including deer. Sad, but true

British Deer Society - About Us

The British Deer Society - Why manage Deer?

You might just about get away with the reintroduction of natural predators in the remotest areas of Scotland but I don't think the idea would go down well with people who live near large deer herds elsewhere.

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Pat

So true. Foxes will only breed if there is enough food to go around so how do they know I completely agree with the Rev, if only there were more people who who thought that way the world would be a much nicer place to live in .I often wonder if these hunters really care about the wildlife or is it just an excuse because they actually enjoy the hunt and killing.

I am afraid that there is one word missing from the above - "successfully", they do not know that there is not enough food to go around and and vixen which comes into breeding condition will be found and covered by a fox. once the cubs are born then the question of sufficient food to go around arises.

Regards
mac

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by muldonach

I am afraid that there is one word missing from the above - "successfully", they do not know that there is not enough food to go around and and vixen which comes into breeding condition will be found and covered by a fox. once the cubs are born then the question of sufficient food to go around arises.

Regards
mac

very true and the "enough" food will then include any ground nesting bird young (and possibly adults), young hares , and basically anything which isnt able to run or fly away. Even wildlife trusts control foxes, so the idea expressed further up this thread that all predator control is carried out by "evil" hunters killing purely for enjoyment is badly misplaced.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Tails4wagging

I dont believe deer starve. Nature has a way with culling and if the natural preditors were reintroduced the natural balance would continue.

and do you seriously believe that being pulled down by a wolf pack for example is a more humane end than being hit by a frangible rifle round.

predators generally kill large prey in one of three ways:

1) they grasp the prey by the neck and muzle and suffocate it - this generally takes about 3 - 5 minuites.

2) They rip open the carotid artery and jugular vein and the prey bleeds to death - this is the most humane as loss of conciousness occurs generally within 60 seconds

however both of the above are largely the preserve of felines, canids such as wolves tend to

3) pull the prey down by the rear quarters and then rip out the intestines while the prey is still alive - if it doesnt die of shock the death process can be long and drawn out.

On the other hand a frangible round from a .338 blows a hole about the size of your fist and a hit anywhere on the head or chest results in instantaeneous death.

Thus while being killed by predators may be more "natural" (though one could also make a good case that man is a natural hunter too) I dont suppose this matters much to the deer. Given the choice of being torn to pieces , dying slowly of starvation, or an instant death from a bullet I know what I'd choose.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by eeyore

very true and the "enough" food will then include any ground nesting bird young (and possibly adults), young hares , and basically anything which isnt able to run or fly away. Even wildlife trusts control foxes, so the idea expressed further up this thread that all predator control is carried out by "evil" hunters killing purely for enjoyment is badly misplaced.

Which Wildlife trusts control foxes? I'd just be interested to know and why do they control them?

[Brian Phipps]

Pat

Not sure about the Wildlife Trust, but my local RSPB reserves have a vermin control expert in place and he removes all foxes on certain reserves to save ground nesting birds, which the foxes eat!

Also an RSPB reserve in Dorset have employed Stalkers to cull the Sika deer which are doing lots of damage to the reserve, its not advertised too much, unless you buy sporting mags which its mentioned in, and the numbers they aim to reduce the population to is about 300.

Brian

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Brian Phipps

Pat

Not sure about the Wildlife Trust, but my local RSPB reserves have a vermin control expert in place and he removes all foxes on certain reserves to save ground nesting birds, which the foxes eat!

Also an RSPB reserve in Dorset have employed Stalkers to cull the Sika deer which are doing lots of damage to the reserve, its not advertised too much, unless you buy sporting mags which its mentioned in, and the numbers they aim to reduce the population to is about 300.

Brian

Although foxes are not an endangered species they are protected by local laws that ensure their welfare, anyone poisoning , trapping or inflicting any cruelty on them can be prosecuted