Hunting: From the hunters view

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by yarak1

I was referring to a particular shoot for the city brigade to have their " day out"......... I have no problem with small shoots whatsoever so long as the birds are fit and have a chance at dodging the guns..........I fly keepered land now ( with permission) and the birds there are fit no question about that but it is a small local shoot..........On the big shoots the birds are not that fit as some guns wouldn't be able to shoot them as they are not true shooters just the " Toffs" on a day out and a bag has to be more or less gauranteed .. whatever you say it happens not frequently or in any large numbers but it does happen..........
Follow this link . Animal Aid: SPORT OR SLAUGHTER? - The grim reality of pheasant shooting ....... this is what disgusts me and many others..... this was only 4 years ago..........I am a hunting man ( Falconer) but this was just slaughter for slaughters sake..........

I followed the link and had a good read of it .... we have already covered the dumping issue and I can only repeat that where it occurs it should be spotlighted for publicity. The rest of the article I would take with a generous pinch of salt - it is certainly not a scenario I recognise.

Cheers
mac

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

When you wipe out foxes, stoats and weasels then eggs and chicks will be predated by rats and other rodents that will have no natural predators. Clearly most "hunters" are money motivated and ground nesting birds means game birds.

I agree with others that have asked why these sort of threads are on this forum. I have no problem with hunting game, or controlling overpopulated species like deer, or invasive species control, I just draw the line when species are killed for financial gain.

For starters i'm not a hunter - i'm a conservation proffesional who has in the past engaged in predator control while working as a wildlife warden.

secondly foxes do take ground nesting birds such as stone curlew (particularly their eggs and chicks) in preference to rabbits because eggs/chicks dont runaway effectively

The stone curlew site I worked on had records going back 10 years - the year before they instituted fox , mustilidae, and corvid control they had five pairs on site but fledged only two chicks ( though numerous eggs were recorded the pulli didnt make it to fledging) - the year after they hired a part time keeper they had four pairs fledging 16 chicks (that's two broods from each of them)

Woodlark broods were less well recorded as it isnt possible to count young before they get to ringing age, without risking exploding the brood , but in the year prior they ringed only one chick - the following year they ringed 6.

the principle predator recorded for woodlark/wheatear was stoat - weasels were present on site also but are so small they are dificult to record.

Foxes are not an effective predator of rats (in fact excepting cats and owls not a lot is) because rats are viscious things and predators dont like to risk getting hurt. Fortunately the methods employed against mustelidae (namely mk IV fenn traps in tunnels arround the heath edge) were also effective against rats and squirels.

[Dogghound]

I dont recall ever calling you a hunter , I didnt dispute foxes took ground nesting birds, but clearly they dont wipe them all out otherwise these birds would not have adapted to nesting on the ground. But I see now the way forward is to destroy all of our native predators to save other species, hmm you would of thought we had learned a lesson with the deer. Its simply YOUR opinion that mustelids avoid rats as ive found, read and been told plenty to suggest they do, not so much weasels which will predate young and nests of rats but stoats and foxes both commonly take adults, these along with owls are key predators in rural areas. I think rats pose a more serious threat to ground nesting birds than our native predators.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

I dont recall ever calling you a hunter , I didnt dispute foxes took ground nesting birds, but clearly they dont wipe them all out otherwise these birds would not have adapted to nesting on the ground. But I see now the way forward is to destroy all of our native predators to save other species, hmm you would of thought we had learned a lesson with the deer. Its simply YOUR opinion that mustelids avoid rats as ive found, read and been told plenty to suggest they do, not so much weasels which will predate young and nests of rats but stoats and foxes both commonly take adults, these along with owls are key predators in rural areas. I think rats pose a more serious threat to ground nesting birds than our native predators.

A) Foxes dont wipe out all GNBs true , however where a species in under severe pressure anyway as a result of habitat loss fox etc predation can make the difference between recovery and extinction

B) no one is suggesting that we "destroy all the native predators" as usual with those who oppose control you are overstating the case - what i'm saying is on sites where there are populations of threatened GNB predator control is necessary during the nesting season.

C) I didnt say mustelidae wont take rats , I said that foxes are not an effective predator of them because they are not their first choice of prey - a fact incontrevertably proven by lots of studies including those carried out by david macdonald and stephen harris.

D) Rats are a serious threat to GNB populations but as I said the steps taken against mustelidae are also effective against rodents, whereas leaving foxes uncontrolled in the vain hope that they will chose to tackle a viscious rodent rather than a nest full of eggs, would not be an effective (more like disasterous) way of protecting the GNB breeding population

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

I agree with others that have asked why these sort of threads are on this forum. I have no problem with hunting game, or controlling overpopulated species like deer, or invasive species control,

Ive already stated that I dont oppose this sort of action, I was simply implying that I disagreed with some of the biology you were refering too. There has been alot of studies yes, but if you have read them all (well most), they are some what inconclusive as some state foxes will take large numbers of rats when rat population densities are high. In a generalistic term, which I was implying, removing predators causes the prey population to boom which can have further implementations on the species you are trying to protect in the first place, thats the only point I am trying to make.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

In a generalistic term, which I was implying, removing predators causes the prey population to boom which can have further implementations on the species you are trying to protect in the first place, thats the only point I am trying to make.

fair enough - but that would only be so if all predators were removed - the main predator presure on rats (in the countryside at least) is actually from owls - which do not prey (much) on GNB as during the hours of darkness the adult stone curlew or whatever is on the nest.

in fact in the case of the stone curlew and adult can handle a rat - to the point where the rats dont bother attended nests - but they dont have a hope in hell of handling a fox.

anyway at the bottom line the figures for fledging success that i posted above show that predator control does have a beneficial effect on GNB fledging success - which would not be the case if the scenario you are expounding here was the true one.

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

I dont recall ever calling you a hunter , I didnt dispute foxes took ground nesting birds, but clearly they dont wipe them all out otherwise these birds would not have adapted to nesting on the ground. But I see now the way forward is to destroy all of our native predators to save other species, hmm you would of thought we had learned a lesson with the deer. Its simply YOUR opinion that mustelids avoid rats as ive found, read and been told plenty to suggest they do, not so much weasels which will predate young and nests of rats but stoats and foxes both commonly take adults, these along with owls are key predators in rural areas. I think rats pose a more serious threat to ground nesting birds than our native predators.

I certainly do not want to see all native predators destroyed but there are occasions where the local balance may need to be shifted either for environmental reasons (to protect a rare species) as carried out by various conservation bodies, or, more contentiously perhaps, in support of an economic activity.

I agree that rats are predators on ground nesting birds, but in this context would include them as a "native predator".

Cheers
mac

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by muldonach

I agree that rats are predators on ground nesting birds, but in this context would include them as a "native predator".

Cheers
mac

I completely agree with control of some species, in some situation in regards to conservation.

Striktly speaking rats are not native but originally from china. They do predate other species, but I would not class them as a predator in the sense I would mustelids, canids or felids.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by eeyore

anyway at the bottom line the figures for fledging success that i posted above show that predator control does have a beneficial effect on GNB fledging success - which would not be the case if the scenario you are expounding here was the true one.

Have you a link to this survey or a reference? I dont deny it im just interested as to how long its been carried out, what survey techniques were used etc?

Quite clearly there are exections, I was givng a genral opinion not so much on stone curlews but on removing predators from an ecosystem, its clearly a bad thing. Im sure you know the reasons why but ill expand if necessary.

[Tails4wagging]

Gamekeepers 'kill off' last hen harriers.

Need I say more?.

Gamekeepers 'kill off' last of hen harriers - Nature, Environment - The Independent