Stalking saturday and today

[salukiwhippet]

Trying to catch up with the doe cull after the pheasant season
So was out at 6.30 on saturday morning, managed to bag a fallow doe by 8.00, and encountered a muntjac doe in the afternoon with a broken front leg, the cause of which is unknown, but she wasn't moving very well, and they cause a lot of damage to woodland, so I took her as well.

Then out at 6.00 this morning, shot a fallow doe at about 8.15 at 150 yards, perfect placement, very pleased with that, then another Muntjac doe at about 4pm, I've got about 70lb of venison in the freezer from saturday and off the gamedealer tomorrow with today's fallow doe, got to butcher the muntie for myself tomorrow too! Busy little me!
Any other stalkers playing catch-up

ATB, James

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

So was out at 6.30 on saturday morning, managed to bag a fallow doe by 8.00, and encountered a muntjac doe in the afternoon with a broken front leg, the cause of which is unknown, but she wasn't moving very well, and they cause a lot of damage to woodland, so I took her as well.


ATB, James

Muntjacs dont actually cause much damage (unlike other deer species) to agriculture or timber crops. But if it was suffering as you said, I can't complain for putting it out of its misery. I know deer have to be controlled in some areas but why are you boosting about killing things on a wildlife forum

[salukiwhippet]

Muntjac do cause a lot of damage to natural regeneration in woodland, and since the wood I was in had large areas of ancient semi-natural, muntjac can be a problem.
I thought this was the fieldsports section, stalking is a fieldsport, even if, as in my case, it's done for management (and venison!) more than for sport and therefore I thought It might make interesting reading for those in wildlife management. Apologies if any offence has been caused, this was not my intention.

ATB, James

[span130502]

i dont think muntjac have arived up here in northumberland yet but i have been told thay have been seen south of the river wear. i am under the impresion they do a huge amount of damage to the plant life on the woodland floor i may be wrong and am ready to be told so

[hunterswind]

All deer cause damage to woodlands when there are excessive numbers look at the baronscourt EXAMPLE - video link deleted again

[Ukwildlifeo]

Everywher I read, it says muntjac cause little damage to forests and crops, saying that they will only damge vegetable crops occasionally. Im not debating other deer cause damage, theres no doubt there, but the diet of muntjac is different

[dunlin]

It's mans destruction of the once vast forests that stretched across this country that now leaves us in a position where wildlife populations have to be kept in check in certain areas.
Which sadly means deer have to suffer as a result.

regards mark n.....

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Everywher I read, it says muntjac cause little damage to forests and crops, saying that they will only damge vegetable crops occasionally. Im not debating other deer cause damage, theres no doubt there, but the diet of muntjac is different

Muntjac cause little damage to commercial forestry or farm crops, they do however severely depress coppice regeneration and certain woodland floor plants, bluebells being a notable but not unique example.

They also have a tendency to spectacular but unnoticed population growth i.e. you don't see a lot of them but all of a sudden you have a lot of damage. Like all other deer unless subject to cull pressure they will expand their population untill they exhaust their food resources which eventually results in a spectacular population crash.

They are prolific breeders and can stand a lot of shooting pressure.

Regards
mac

[muldonach]

Originally Posted by dunlin

It's mans destruction of the once vast forests that stretched across this country that now leaves us in a position where wildlife populations have to be kept in check in certain areas.
Which sadly means deer have to suffer as a result.

regards mark n.....

Actually its the exact opposite - the explosion in deer populations in the last century is generally attributed to the planting program followed by the Forestry Commission and private landowners following the two world wars, since little or no provision was made for deer control in this programme deer populations effectively grew unchecked for many years.

Far from suffering, deer populations as a whole benefit from a suitably proportioned annual cull.

Cheers
mac

[salukiwhippet]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Everywher I read, it says muntjac cause little damage to forests and crops, saying that they will only damge vegetable crops occasionally. Im not debating other deer cause damage, theres no doubt there, but the diet of muntjac is different

I've always been told in all my training that muntjac have a wider ranging diet than most species
and are therefore more likely to do damage. Due to their short stature, all their feeding is also restricted to about 2ft from the ground and below, localising the impact to the lower understorey of the wood, which is so vital for other woodland species.
They also breed prolifically and are very elusive, therefore its hard to get an accurate assessment fo numbers, and to manage them.

In reply to dunlin, none of the deer I have shot have suffered, the bullet has been properly placed and of the correct calibre and type to ensure a clean kill. The deer will have been unaware even of the bang.

On another note, just had venison for tea, delicious!

James

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

I've always been told in all my training that muntjac have a wider ranging diet than most species
and are therefore more likely to do damage. Due to their short stature, all their feeding is also restricted to about 2ft from the ground and below, localising the impact to the lower understorey of the wood, which is so vital for other woodland species.
They also breed prolifically and are very elusive, therefore its hard to get an accurate assessment fo numbers, and to manage them.

In reply to dunlin, none of the deer I have shot have suffered, the bullet has been properly placed and of the correct calibre and type to ensure a clean kill. The deer will have been unaware even of the bang.

On another note, just had venison for tea, delicious!

James

Ok. I was just going on what I read in deer and british mammal books. Went back and looked and it was mentioned in the selection on 'relationships with man' In which it states: "Very little damage is done to conifers or arable crops" but also goes on to say the "shoots garden plants a decidous tress are more vunerable" which I guess is what your getting at.

On the subject of diet: 30-40% is bramble, and seasonally ivy, fungi, broad leaved trees and shrubs and grass in spring.

And in the end they are non-native and you are humanily destroying them, and taking them for food

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by muldonach

Muntjac cause little damage to commercial forestry or farm crops, they do however severely depress coppice regeneration and certain woodland floor plants, bluebells being a notable but not unique example.

thats certainly my experience - they dont cause much damage to mature trees , certainly not the bark stripping caused by some deer species but they are hell on regenerating copice stems - they tend to take the tops out causing the step to flatten and divide which is not desirable in the formation of a hazel copice stool (as required by Dormice etc)

i tend to regard shooting as a management technique rather than a sport because i do it reluctantly when all else has failed but it is certainly necesary in sustainable woodland mgnt where muntjac and Chinese Water Deer pops are high

and i agree with saluki whippet in reply to dunlins post if you are a competent marksman with an appropriate weapon (on deer i generally use a .338 with frangible rounds) then the deer dont know what has hit them and are dead before they hit the ground

[salukiwhippet]

.338? I'm sure it's a very clean kill but isnt it a bit extreme for roe and munties at woodland ranges? I use .243win and the meat damage is bad enough from that, whats it like from a .338?
Not having a go, I'm genuiinely interested.

ATB, James

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by salukiwhippet

.338? I'm sure it's a very clean kill but isnt it a bit extreme for roe and munties at woodland ranges? I use .243win and the meat damage is bad enough from that, whats it like from a .338?
Not having a go, I'm genuiinely interested.

ATB, James

you are probably right but at the time that I was doing deer control as a reserve warden I only had access to two rifles - a .22 rimfire and a .338 and clearly the .22 doesnt have the energy to kill clean on anything bigger than bunnies.

you are correct that the .338 made a royal mess of the body but our prime motivation was to control the population with recovery of the meat being only a collateral benefit.

These days i dont own a gun (except for air rifles and even there i have given up my fac rated ones) because the paperwork etc was getting too heavy and I had little genuine need of them as i had moved into a job which was more about managing people.

[The Woodman]

.338 or .308?

.243 Win man myself, get it right and there's little damage to the meat.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

.338 or .308?

.243 Win man myself, get it right and there's little damage to the meat.

it was definitely a .338 - beast of a gun ( Manlicher I think) and kicked like a mule, i had a very sore shoulder after a few rounds, probably designed for big deer at long range on open country , but hey you use what you've got - i agree a .243 win would probably have been more appropriate but we didnt have one available.

[The Woodman]

Heck of a round - that one. With a 250 grain head it produces about 6525 Joule (4813 ft lb) of muzzle energy. No wonder you had a sore shoulder!

[Platanus]

If you've got mixed species on the ground you shoot over then I reckon .243 is ideal. If you're only after muntjac then you can actually use .22 centrefire callibres now e.g. .222 .22-250 due to new legislation in England.
A lot of stalkers agree that these calibres are fine for roe as well and are legal for roe in Scotland but not south of the border, which has always seemed a bit of an anomaly.
I personally only use a .243 and providing shot placement is good then not much is wasted - there's not a lot of meat on the ribs anyway. Unfortunately deer don't always provide a nice square on opportunity and if you need to reach cull targets you probably won't want to pass up a chance just to save the shoulder on the far side.
For roe, the extended doe season has made a big difference and definitely helps with the cull.

I can easily understand why a lot of people who love wildlife find the thought of shooting deer a bit hard to take. I love deer too. They're beautiful and fascinating creatures and stalkers get a lot more opportunity than most people to observe them at close quarters (not always to shoot them!). Responsible stalkers aren't cruel, bloodthirst, gun-happy Rambos. Although no one has suggested it on here - we are not out to obliterate everything we see but to selectively control deer numbers to try to keep a reasonable balance in the countryside. After all - man is now the only natural predator of deer and I would rather see them hamanely dispatched by a bullet than killed by unruly dogs or maimed by traffic.

As for .338, that must have been donated by a retired big game hunter! Lord knows what the bullet trajectory is like - or the price!

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Platanus

As for .338, that must have been donated by a retired big game hunter! Lord knows what the bullet trajectory is like - or the price!

you are nearly right there - it originally belonged to one of my then volunteers who had been a farmer in rohdesia (and who if his tales were to be belived was single handedly responsible for the demise of large game in those parts). Price wise i would imagine that you are right but it came complete with five boxes of soft point/ frangible rounds so I never had to find out.

I totally agree with what people are saying about meat damage etc, and i'm sure the .243 is indeed more suitable, but like i said we didnt have one handy and controlling tree damage was more important than harvesting the meat, and one thing that could be said about the .338 was that it killed cleanly (I would imagine by shock as much as anything)

[Platanus]

More shock and ow than shock and awe I imagine! Anyway you could always use it to fell trees if your chainsaw conked out.