Fox Hunting

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by ChrisJB

Like hunting with dogs, I find all of these unacceptable. Without wishing to come across as arrogant, on this one I'd say I know what's best. As far as I am concerned anyone who thinks otherwise, doesn't.


Regards, Chris

Chris,

I have a very philosophical outlook. If everything a person knows about hunting, (or any other involvement with animals) can be summed up in two sentences, and it sounds bad, it is better for them to show their concern for animals by opposing it, than to join the ranks of those who don't care about animal suffering at all.

You haven't said that you are in that category, but I get the feeling you may well be, and as Deerhunter says, you are entitled to your viewpoint, however there is one thing I wish people would explain.

If hunting is so terrible that we shouldn't even look into it, why have various directors and other prominent members of LACS left the league in order to support hunting? You see, the more you look into hunting, the more you wonder if first impressions are always right!

I'll look up their names when I have a chance.

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Seems to me Deerhunter needs scapegoats as he carnt look after his sheep. . Doubt very much you loose enough lambs to foxes to make you stress out like you do. Badgers to foxes always something wrong with you and your farm must be such a hard life all this wildlife.

Dogghound,

I've already said that I don't want to fight with you, and I do hope you accept this.

However, you have completely lost me. I have been reading Deerhunter’s posts for some time now, yet I can’t recollect what he said to make you think he is caring for livestock so badly.

When it comes to protecting livestock from foxes, I know all about the strong fox-proof henhouses to protect chickens at night. Otherwise, will you please outline the methods you think work to protect lambs, and also free-range chickens during daylight hours, in more detail?

A very polite request. There are no doubt other people out there who would also like the details.

[stripee]

Originally Posted by Xanadu2

When it comes to protecting livestock from foxes, I know all about the strong fox-proof henhouses to protect chickens at night. Otherwise, will you please outline the methods you think work to protect lambs, and also free-range chickens during daylight hours, in more detail?

A very polite request. There are no doubt other people out there who would also like the details.

Hi Xanadu,
Is fox hunting purely economic then? The money gained from the sale of the lambs and the free range chickens and eggs? However, if it is based on the welfare of the lamb for instance, then why are some lambs being incinerated rather than sold, also how long is a lamb's life before it goes to slaughter? How long does the average sheep live and what if you are a ram? Also, what with free range chickens, what is the definition? I don't know of any that live without some fencing or restraints. My sister in law has them but has a high wire fence and dug into the ground, no fox has ever broached this. Also some other more distant relatives have industrial chicken farms with "free range" and "barn" chickens, but these are not much connected to the idea of free birds from what I have seen. And male birds have shorter lives. Average life for an organic free range bird is 39 days. Considerably less if you are not organic. Chickens on the whole have the nastiest time of any farmed animal. Most people I know who hunt are into horses and dogs. If you own a horse, then maybe it's fun. Most kids I know who have gone out with the hunt view it like that.
It's regarded as a sport isn't it too?
What about chasing the fox, how natural is this for this animal (excluding being chased by humans)? What predator would normally have done this before agriculture?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by stripee

Hi Xanadu,
Is fox hunting purely economic then? The money gained from the sale of the lambs and the free range chickens and eggs? However, if it is based on the welfare of the lamb for instance, then why are some lambs being incinerated rather than sold, also how long is a lamb's life before it goes to slaughter? How long does the average sheep live and what if you are a ram? Also, what with free range chickens, what is the definition? I don't know of any that live without some fencing or restraints. My sister in law has them but has a high wire fence and dug into the ground, no fox has ever broached this. Also some other more distant relatives have industrial chicken farms with "free range" and "barn" chickens, but these are not much connected to the idea of free birds from what I have seen. And male birds have shorter lives. Average life for an organic free range bird is 39 days. Considerably less if you are not organic. Chickens on the whole have the nastiest time of any farmed animal. Most people I know who hunt are into horses and dogs. If you own a horse, then maybe it's fun. Most kids I know who have gone out with the hunt view it like that.
It's regarded as a sport isn't it too?
What about chasing the fox, how natural is this for this animal (excluding being chased by humans)? What predator would normally have done this before agriculture?

i am slightly perplexed that on a thread about fox hunting, you suggest I do not know how to look after lambs (after 45 years), and then avoid my questions !

But I will but in and answer yours so as to encourage engagement.

1. No fox hunting is not purely economic. I don't know anything that is.

2. yes. money is gained from the sale of lambs.

3. I don't know about lambs being incinerated. Alive ? Shot and incinerated? But I guess it is because they are worth nothing.

4. A lambs life before slaughter is 5-8 months for example.

5. A sheeps life span? Depends what it is and where it lives. But on average how about 6 years?

6. Golden Eagle

[buteo_buteo]

Yes, golden eagles love a fox to themselves. Have seen it with my own eyes, although it was a captive eagle, but still pretty impressive stuff

[Xanadu2]

I'm realy puzzled. This morning I received an email with a reply to this by Stripee. I've typed my response off-line, but when I come to post it, Stripee's post isn't there.

What happened?

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by Xanadu2

I'm realy puzzled. This morning I received an email with a reply to this by Stripee. I've typed my response off-line, but when I come to post it, Stripee's post isn't there.

What happened?

As soon as I posted this, the missing post, plus some more, magically appeared! So here goes.

Hi Stripee,

Thanks for your answer. The idea is that farm livestock is so short-lived it doesn’t matter if the fox kills some, and, yes, I can see where you are coming from, although I doubt incineration is common. I had a chance to discuss this with a friend today and we both had plenty to say against ‘farmers’ who keep sheep for the sake of subsidies, neglecting lambs that are poor doers and blaming foxes at every opportunity, while making the real money elsewhere. I note that you have some quotes from experience, but the rest is taken from a source of reference. Would you tell me what it is, please?

However I’ll tell you my main source of reference. My boyfriend, now sadly in a care home following a stroke, is a lot older than me. He went to agricultural college and farmed in his youth, but fifty years ago he turned to agricultural journalism. Sheep were one of his favourite topics. Agricultural journalists have a Guild, which encourages them to maintain very high standards of reporting. A few years ago he wrote an article on sheep management that won a major award from the Guild as the best piece of reporting for that year.

On the strength of this he won a scholarship worth thousands of pounds, awarded to any writer who could use it to make a significant contribution to agricultural studies, and set out to produce the most detailed study of this aspect of sheep management published in the last fifty years. He travelled to interview the most skilled and successful shepherds in different parts of the country.

With a background like that, he wasn’t likely to waste his time on second-rate shepherds, was he? He took me on all these visits. The shepherds were very friendly people, and I had the chance to question them myself over tea after the main interview. Afterwards I typed the manuscript. I have also visited free-range chicken enterprises with him. He didn’t have such a high profile study to produce of chickens, but he realised how much they interest me and could certainly give an authorative answer to any of my questions.

So that is the experience I usually draw on. I have seen at first hand, over and over again, how much the farmers and stock-keepers he consulted care for livestock. The idea that predation on their stock was acceptable because the birds or animals were so short-lived would utterly horrify them!

Also, living in a farming area, I know how many of my friends and neighbours are up all night in early spring to help with difficult lambings. Surely if the lambs were readily disposable, they would catch up on their sleep instead, and if they discover that they have lost several hour’s sleep in the middle of the night just to provide a fox with a meal plus some extra kills, it is not human nature for them to be philosophical because the lambs were going to be short-lived anyway. Not really, is it?

I thought my follow-up to my previous post was to be outlining methods of protecting livestock, but in my experience, the more you type at one time, the more people miss because they don’t read it all.

I’ll also come back to the issue of chasing the fox later.

Meanwhile, I hope the moderator will tidy up this board to amalgamate three threads on the same issue into one. It’ll make life a lot simpler.

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

i am slightly perplexed that on a thread about fox hunting, you suggest I do not know how to look after lambs (after 45 years), and then avoid my questions !

But I will but in and answer yours so as to encourage engagement.

1. No fox hunting is not purely economic. I don't know anything that is.

2. yes. money is gained from the sale of lambs.

3. I don't know about lambs being incinerated. Alive ? Shot and incinerated? But I guess it is because they are worth nothing.

4. A lambs life before slaughter is 5-8 months for example.

5. A sheeps life span? Depends what it is and where it lives. But on average how about 6 years?

6. Golden Eagle

Deerhunter,

I have seen nothing whatsoever in your posts to make me think that you are a bad farmer, and not the very good kind that my boyfriend would have been delighted to write about.

The best farmers in the country often support the hunt. True!

[stripee]

Hi Xanadu,
thank you for your reply! Here's a link in todays Independent newspaper (which is the newspaper that never fails to make you feel depressed about something) however, it has an article about chickens you might like to look at.
Deerhunter, I'm not attacking your personal farming skills/methods.
I won't ever like hunting, so I guess it's a bit pointless continuing on this thread!
Also I apologise for not getting back sooner when posts are put up, sometimes I am not on the internet for a day or two and am sometimes awayIndependent Online Edition > Home Usually I eventually catch up

[LukeHolland]

I've enjoyed reading the posts here on the debate regarding traditional hunting with hounds. It is a complex issue that raises a host of ancilliary questions outside the narrow confines of the hunt debate. I immersed myself in this subject while making the opening film of the five-part BBC Storyville documentary series 'A Very English Village'. Some of you may have seen this 90 minute observational documentary 'Going for the Kill', which follows East Sussex farmer and Hunt Master Gary Lee, during the lead-up to the 2005 Ban on hunting with hounds. If you have seen the film, I'd welcome feedback. The film has had outings on BBC Four, BBC Two and BBC One. More information is on-line at http://www.averyenglishvillage.com.

Happy New Year all round!

Luke Holland