Fox Hunting

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by Brains

Hi Xanadu


Hope your keyboard gets sorted soon

Hi Brains,

There seems to be some confusion about exactly what I said. Since I still have keyboard problems I can’t type much until it’s fixed. Thanks for the good wishes!

Thanks to the boyfriend who took me to watch digging out, I know plenty of people who believe that foxes need culling and enjoy going out to do it. I accept that you are not looking for the opinions of those who want the hunting ban repealed. But since I doubt that scientific research has been adequately carried out on every point I can think of raising, do you accept opinions from the members of the local gun clubs who shoot foxes if they talk about either shooting or hunting?

[Brains]

Originally Posted by Xanadu2

Thanks to the boyfriend who took me to watch digging out, I know plenty of people who believe that foxes need culling and enjoy going out to do it. I accept that you are not looking for the opinions of those who want the hunting ban repealed. But since I doubt that scientific research has been adequately carried out on every point I can think of raising, do you accept opinions from the members of the local gun clubs who shoot foxes if they talk about either shooting or hunting?

Hi Xanadu

Yes - of course listen to the opinions of those involved in hunting and shooting. You can never get to the nub of an argument without understanding the other side! However, I don't 'accept' any opinion unquestioningly, no matter where that opinion has come from. So, just because someone agrees with my line of argument, it doesn't mean that I agree with what they say. For instance, someone may agree with me that hunting should be banned, but only because they don't like the people involved. I don't accept that as a good enough reason and have argued against such people in the past as much as with someone who proclaimed to enjoy killing foxes and badgers. Similarly, I don't expect those on the other side of this debate to accept what those who hunt say without question, while vilifiying anything said by those on my side. Questioning the veracity of information you use for argument is essential to get to a proper understanding of the debate, and hopefully to get to some kind of agreement.

With much of this argument, there is no 'scientific' evidence - and so we have to rely on opinion, anecdotes and experience for much of the time. Such 'evidence' needs to be questioned strongly as it is invariably tainted with our own perceptions and prejudices - it is highly subjective. However, where there is information available that is more clearly objective, in the form of scientific studies, surveys ... etc, it is vital that it is taken into account if the debate is to progress beyond ' I say ... you say'. If independent evidence demonstrated that hunting actually had an effect on fox populations, I would have to accept the results irrespective of who or what organisation did the research. I would then have to decide how such results inform my views on whether it should be baned or not, in exactly the same way as I said about badger culling and TB (can go into that on the cull thread if you wish). All too often though, people on both sides of the debate dismiss work that goes against their own entrenched views - LACS would never accept work that shows predator control has an effect and hunting organisations never accept work that shows hunting is irrelevant to fox population control. The same thing happens with individuals.

You may be on the other side of this debate form me, but you're prepared to question, which is more than most in my experience - for that I thank you

[Brains]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Stephen Harris has been instrumental in getting a ban on hunting. A ban the government says is working and LACs says is not !

you know perfectly well that hunting has not been banned - only the number of dogs to be used has been changed and they are not allowed to kill the fox!

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Do you agree with laws that cannot be enforced?

As a statement of intent, yes I do!

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Hunting is not necessary. The most efficient way is to gas foxes. Hunting is the most humane way.

In your view it is more humane, but not mine.

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

And no, trail and drag hunting is not an option as it does not kill foxes.

for the social and economic benefits hunting brings, drag/trail hunting is a vaible alternative. The killing of the few foxes hunts manage to dispatch has little impact, as we've already been through.

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

You seem to think the Hunting act 2004 or 2005 is a compromise. Why do you think they compromised ?

And what do you think is the next step on the long road ?

Why compromise? To have the chance of getting it through the House of Lords. They failed - but rather than using more parliamentary time, and to keep their own backbenchers onside, the Govt used the Parliament Act - simple really. But remember, you could have been hunting with a full pack legally if the HoL had accepted lisenced hunting as the CA finally accepted as a position. So if you want to blame someone for the mess - blame the Lords!

What's at the end of the long road - hopefully a full ban on fox hunting with hounds. But don't worry - it's many many years off yet!

[bunnylover]

Such narrow minded rubbish based on a preconcieved idea and obviousely not experience.You read too much mate and obviousely select your info to support your preconcieved biased ideas.Do you visit the country side often ,do you live there have you any idea of the feelings of farmers landowners,does a ban on hu nting effect you personnally,why do you think you have the moral upper hand on 1000s of years of ancesteral activity.
If you where losing hens or lambs which your livlihood depended on,how would you sort out the fox problem????Shoot them????What if you wounded him would you be happy to allow him to suffer for days/weeks???
The hunting ban had nothing to do with cruelty but as everyone knows it was a class war.
Then we have the media brainwashing folks into thinking hunting with dogs is a sadistic activity carried out by either toffs or simplminded shell suit clad numpties.
Brains your opinions are highly arrogant and offensive not to mention inaccurate.
The maximum sentence for raping a minor in N Ireland to a few years ago was 3 years?Abortion is flurishing.Child abuse is slowly becoming a sexual orientation and some folks can t see anything more important than hunting with dogs??????
Am i nuts or has this country gone to the dogs?

[Brains]

Thank you Bunnylover - all comments are appreciated !

Originally Posted by bunnylover

Such narrow minded rubbish based on a preconcieved idea and obviousely not experience.You read too much mate and obviousely select your info to support your preconcieved biased ideas.Do you visit the country side often ,do you live there have you any idea of the feelings of farmers landowners,does a ban on hu nting effect you personnally,why do you think you have the moral upper hand on 1000s of years of ancesteral activity.

A narrow minded and pre-conceived idea .... and this from someone who refuses to even read reports that question your own views!

Capital punishment had 1000s of years of history behind it .... does it mean that it should have continued beyond the 1960s just because we'd always done it? Cows used to milked by milkmaids ... had lots of history behind it ... should it have continued? Serfdom had lots of history behind it - should it have continued? Cock fighting had lots of history behind it - should it have been allowed to continue? History gives no reason to continue doing something.

Originally Posted by bunnylover

If you where losing hens or lambs which your livlihood depended on,how would you sort out the fox problem????Shoot them????What if you wounded him would you be happy to allow him to suffer for days/weeks???

the financial impact of predation from foxes is very low - and I'd put money on it being no different in areas that have hunting and those that don't. Draw your own conclusions.

Originally Posted by bunnylover

The hunting ban had nothing to do with cruelty but as everyone knows it was a class war.

Within the Labour Party - yes, you're probably right. But I'm not a member of the Labour Party and nor do I support them. I come at this from an angle of 'does hunting do any good - and if it does, does it require foxes to die for that good'. I conclude that hunting has some aspects that are positive - but killing foxes isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by bunnylover

Brains your opinions are highly arrogant and offensive not to mention inaccurate.

My opinions are highly arrogant and offensive? In what way? Please explain ...

Originally Posted by bunnylover

Child abuse is slowly becoming a sexual orientation

I think that says it all!

[stripee]

When out in our woods last night there was an idiot with a gun shooting. These types of people are dangerous, I don't want to get shot! And they are trespassing.
One of the things that upset me was hunt trespass, and the arrogance of the hunts and their aggression shown to local people who are distressed at the hunt in their back gardens and on their land without permission. There is a lot of aggression even on WAB from people who are pro-hunt I have noticed. I know many normal people who hunt, and agree to disagree, but there is a hardcore that is very nasty.
The people I know who have had trouble with foxes and hens are chiefly those with inadequate homing for their birds and a naiive attitude. As for lambs, as I posted ages ago, my near neighbour who was a lover of his sheep to the enth degree never killed a fox. He preferred the dog fox he knew, and acted as a shepherd to his flock often staying out all night! Where are all the shepherds? Indoors watching TV. I have frequently cut neglected sheep free from barbed wire where they have been left to die slow deaths when tangled up by their wool, and left for days on end.
We own a farm in the EU which produces oil and nuts, managed by someone else, they shoot all the blackbirds, I hate this, they are lovely people, but they wear their hunting gear, and have their dogs to retreive the birds, and it is rare to hear a blackbird or a thrush. It also sounds like world war 3 in the season, it can be dangerous to go out! I look at the birds here and think they are very lucky. And I hope we will sell the place soon.
As for a class war, although as I posted somewhere else, this kind of hunting was promoted by the Normans, I really don't give a toss who is doing it. To me it is cruel, and I prefer all wildlife in one piece as much as possible. People obviously have nasty things happening to them as well and one cannot deny that but why add to the misery. In my opinion, people who don't live in the countryside can have a valid view of issues from their knowledge and understanding just as people who do live in rural areas can comment on city life and issues there. The division is not exclusive, and many people I know who live in rural areas are not pro hunt.

And as for man the hunter, I did read recently, that he started off being man the scavenger. Doesn't sound quite so cool
But am off WAB now til Christmas.

[bunnylover]

If you had of noticed or looked up the The Mirrors report on Queens uni survey you ll find that all i said was correct conserning the survey,Brains i was talking about first hand knowledge notbiased oeoeoeoe used by a LACS member to abuse her position .
Strpee maybe your the one trespassing chances are very few gun men would risk licsense and hassle to poach .And very few farmrs would give nosey folks access to land where they serve no purpose.
Country folk don t all agree with hunting but most people who live in country areas now are blow ins who have no idea of country traditions and see the fields as their own private playground often taking the moral upperhand on folks who have lived and worked the ground for years.
This section is titled Bushcraft?Very interesting as watching the expert on bushcraft Ray Mears he educates us that surviving of the land will entail killing and has done for years ,oh and a big difference between hunting and its various forms and various oldtime gambling activities ie.cockfighting,again Brains you use a common tactic called bait and switch. .No offence to the soft hearted souls on here.
Man the scavenger or oportunist still not man with the childs heart,God help this country when people are so appalled by pest control and killing vermin,not to many saying much about Halal slaughter eh,scared of the muslims eh,so offended speak up!
With regards to nasty hunters,its when people are forced into a corner and forced to submit to pompus pansy clapham common stalking politicians that promotes this attitude.

[stripee]

We have a long connection to the land going back here to 1947, a livestock farm originally, with the inlaws.Their family own large farms in the North/Midlands. Also they are our woods, ie we own them The countryside has changed, just as the rest of the world has. Some won't like that.

[naturelover]

Originally Posted by C C

America are alot more cruel with their animals . They still use leg hold traps. And they use a lot of poisons.

One method of poisoning, is the use of a trigger activated bait tube. It is a small tube placed in the ground, which contains poison, and a small explosive charge. This device is then baited, when Fox/Coyote attempts to eat bait, it sets of charge, which forces the poison into the animals throat.

omg thats horrid, those poor defensless animals,thats a new one on me.

[bunnylover]

Again yous have witnessed this????Another ploy of lies and propaganda from PETA no doubt.Don t believe all you you hear.
Coyotes defenceless???Not from what i know of them.They need controlling ,however there is a strong hunting tradition in the states and i doubt very much whether there is a need for such horrific acts of control.
People love horror stories.
My father in law hunted and shot and fished all his life yet i know of no other individual who done more to promote habitat and rescue injured animals.
Of course that may not fit the stereotype of the sadistic hunter.
Well stripee "if"you own the woods your doing a poor job of managing them,why not phone the police if folks are trespassing instead of coming on here complaining ,nothing we can do about it
Who said hunting was cool?Its been going on before cool was invented,its a interesting and enjoyable neccessity for anyone with an interest in working animals and conservation.