Fox Hunting

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by tufftie

This is coming from an anti culler... if you do have to control fox numbers, which I don't agree with as they're self controlling, then why do it in such an inhumane way? A quick shot by a good marksman would be far more humane.

Can you show me a link to the study that shows they are self controlling ?

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Can you show me a link to the study that shows they are self controlling ?

Try the web site of your friend Stephen Harris!!!

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

No, what you are saying is YOU DO BELIEVE IN BREAKING THE LAW.

Don't you have the guts to admit it ?

Do you know the sort of sabbers who threaten little girls ?

Believe me i do have the guts to admit it and I do not believe in breaking the law. no, i don't, the sabbers I know are peaceful demonstrators and if you want to try that tack do you know any hunters that leave dead foxes on doorsteps and set hounds on cats? Keep it nice Deerhunter because we're never going to agree on this subject!

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Believe me i do have the guts to admit it and I do not believe in breaking the law. no, i don't, the sabbers I know are peaceful demonstrators and if you want to try that tack do you know any hunters that leave dead foxes on doorsteps and set hounds on cats? Keep it nice Deerhunter because we're never going to agree on this subject!

At 5.00PM you stated that it was O.k. to break the law.

What a surprise to learn that the sabbers you know are peaceful demonstrators !!!

No. I don't know any hunters that leave dead foxes on door steps or set hounds on cats. I hunt with three packs, Exmoor Foxhounds, DSSH, and Minehead Harriers. If you can show me where we have committed these offences...........

It doesn't look like we are going to agree on breaking the law. I am quite consistent. I pick and choose which laws I obey.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by tufftie

Try the web site of your friend Stephen Harris!!!

I have looked at his website and he says it is worthwhile controlling fox numbers !!

[Brains]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

"Please DH, don't take me for a fluffy bunny hugger that doesn't know anything about the real world! "

I'd love to believe you but it is going to be difficult.

And why is that - just because I don't agree with you?

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Prolapses, triplets, foxes taking lambs, lambs not sucking, lambs getting lost, lambs coming oeoeoeoe first, etc, etc, are all things I can do something about. And I try to. Why don't you understand this? Everytime a fox takes a lamb it is between £17 (this year) and £50 lost. The same as if one dies of hypothermia. I try and prevent both.

I understand that perfectly well - and I understand perfectly well that you try and reduce it by as much as you can. My point is that hunting of foxes did not, and still does not, affect the overall number of foxes and so any perception of control is an illusion. It may be a perfectly understandable illusion .. but it's an illusion all the same.

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

"And when foxy woxy is killed, another foxy woxy comes to take it's place ... a foxy woxy that would in all probablity be killed on the road if a territory wasn't available for it to take over - ironically due to the hunt killing the cute resident foxy woxy. Isn't that what happens?"

No.

that's where you're wrong

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

"Isn't that why, in a commercial forrest, 56 foxes could be killed in a year when the resident population was estimated at only 32? And there were STILL foxes present?"

Got me. what does this mean?

it's called immigration!

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Ithink you are guessing a little. See I may be stupid next to the Brains but as I said I live in the real world. That is why we go cubbing. You will have to take my word for it that it reduces the numbers.

No - not guessing. Just loking at what happens when you actually measure the populations. So I don't need to take your word for it. Now, I did see one piece of work recently that showed a negative correlation of fox population with hunting pressure, which means that the fox population was lower in hunted areas than similar non hunted regions. It was in upland regions - and guess who did the study ...... yes, your friend, Prof. S. Harris

[Xanadu2]

Originally Posted by mh68

While on the face of it , it may sound inhumane, its probably the opposite - the dogs dont attack the fox, they simply locate it and contain it while its dug down to (correct me if i`m wrong),and being in direct close contact with the fox ensures a clean kill which cant be guaranteed using marksman tactics.

Mark H

I've seen it done. Make no mistake, if I had any reason to believe the fox had suffered, I'd tell you so.

As for the good shot from the skilled marksman, well, it can kill outright, but don't count on it...

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

I have looked at his website and he says it is worthwhile controlling fox numbers !!

I beg your pardon but i have just looked again and no where in it does he say that. He even cites the Mammal Society report done during the foot and mouth outbreak when no hunting was allowed and the findings for that were there were no changes of fox numbers. The only place where foxes are causing a problem seems to be Australia where they were introduced and are not natural predators - nothing to do with the situation in the UK. I don't think we could have been looking at the same website.

[tufftie]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

At 5.00PM you stated that it was O.k. to break the law.

What a surprise to learn that the sabbers you know are peaceful demonstrators !!!

No. I don't know any hunters that leave dead foxes on door steps or set hounds on cats. I hunt with three packs, Exmoor Foxhounds, DSSH, and Minehead Harriers. If you can show me where we have committed these offences...........

It doesn't look like we are going to agree on breaking the law. I am quite consistent. I pick and choose which laws I obey.

You have misinterpreted me, try reading what it actually says rather than what you want it to say. It's something to be done after the police have said they need evidence and only if it was done where there could be no chance of a breach of the peace. Personally I have never broken the law and neither has anyone I've know and I certainly don't condone it. This is gathering evidence for the police - private detective work if you like. Let's face it if the law wasn't being broken in the first place or the police had the time to deal with it then it wouldn't happen; I heard something about it on the local news once - that's all.

There are idiots on both sides I'm sure but of the two people I know that sab - both are peaceful; they have just turned up at the meet with their boards. That comment by the way was unnecessary and insulting, I seem to remember asking you to keep it nice?

The things I mentioned happened in Cornwall - as for my own experience a few posts back it was on Exmoor about 24yrs ago, so probably of those three but not sure which one. I'm sure things have changed since then and this sort of thing wouldn't happen there now.

Now for goodness sake let's just agree to differ on this one!

[Kerry]

In the words of the hunt:

"The object of cub-hunting is to educate both young hounds and fox-cubs. As was said earlier, it is not until he has been hunted that the fox draws fully on his resources of sagacity and cunning so that he is able to provide a really good run....I try to be out cub-hunting as often as possible myself, and the ideal thing is for the Master to be out every day....Never lose sight of the fact that one really well-beaten cub killed fair and square is worth half a dozen fresh ones killed the moment they are found without hounds having to exert themselves in their task. It is essential that hounds should have their blood up and learn to be savage with their fox before he is killed." (Fox-Hunting. The Duke of Beaufort. Pub. David & Charles. 1980. Pages 68-69)

Digging out of foxes:
"It should be a standing order that, except where there is a likelihood of the fox digging farther in, he should always be kept in the earth for the hounds to draw~if it is decided to kill him. Nothing teaches hounds to mark so well as drawing their foxes, and at the same time the spectacle, so distressing to many, of a fox being thrown to hounds, is avoided.

If a fox is to be killed, but for some reason cannot be drawn by the Pack, let him be eaten at the earth, or near it. The practice among certain Masters of pretending to give a fox which they intend to kill a "sporting chance" (having first given instructions that he is to be so interfered with that he cannot possibly escape) deceives but few of the Field. If the Master decides that, for one reason or another, that particular fox must die, he should have the courage of his convictions, and not have to resort to attempts to deceive his Field into believing that he means to give them a hunt........

If it is necessary to throw a fox to hounds it is as well to do so when as few people as possible are looking. If necessary the Pack can be trotted quickly and quietly away to some secluded spot, and the fox be eaten before the Field and foot followers have realized that they have gone.

The terrier man and the other hunt servants must be warned that they should exercise the greatest care that no action of theirs can be construed as an act of cruelty. There is, unfortunately, no doubt that much unnecessary suffering is caused to many foxes during the various stages of a dig, much to the detriment of Foxhunting and of Field Sports at large. That these acts of cruelty arise from pure thoughtlessness and familiarity cannot be denied, but, nevertheless, they are quite rightly and quite naturally much resented by many of the followers and chance onlookers." (To Hunt the Fox. David Brock. Master of the Thurles and Kilshane Foxhounds sometime Master of the East Sussex. Seeley Service & Co. Ltd. 1937. Pages 276-277)