fox cub hunting

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Well, as a farmer, I am engaged in manual labour all day, 7 days a week.

So here is one working class person who hunts. Oh, and my Grandfather was a miner from Rothwell in Yorkshire.

I think my credentials are impeccable !!

Yep

[Meles meles]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Well, as a farmer, I am engaged in manual labour all day, 7 days a week.

So here is one working class person who hunts. Oh, and my Grandfather was a miner from Rothwell in Yorkshire.

I think my credentials are impeccable !!

why get your back up??
You dont need credentials to join a discussion,
And if you hunt, then fine thats what you do, some wont understand, some will.
WAB is good in that sense we are all here because of one thing wildlife.
What you do or how you enjoy it is irrelevent.

You seem to have a reason for pointing out that your a working class hunter???
Great i used to cook their dinner. More recently I have been sweeping streets. so what?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Yep

Thanks. I will continue to hunt with clear consience.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Thanks. I will continue to hunt with clear consience.

Why wouldnt you?

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Meles meles

why get your back up??
You dont need credentials to join a discussion,
And if you hunt, then fine thats what you do, some wont understand, some will.
WAB is good in that sense we are all here because of one thing wildlife.
What you do or how you enjoy it is irrelevent.

You seem to have a reason for pointing out that your a working class hunter???
Great i used to cook their dinner. More recently I have been sweeping streets. so what?

Sorry. I thought someone in post No.14 declared it was rich persons sport. I was just setting the record straight.

I think it is important to protect our wildlife that is why i particularly want deer hunting to continue.

Any idea why it is bad farming to have small lambs outside?

I feel quite unsure of myself now!

[Meles meles]

Originally Posted by mammalman

Because of the foot and mouth outbreak all forms of hunting are supposed to have been voluntarily stopped. Clearly this is only window dressing by the huning fraternity who are still hell-bent on killing wildlife for fun. Many hunts are still hunting in the old, now illegal, way. It is importatnt that everyone who is opposed to this cruel "sport" lobbies their MPs to have pressure brought upon the police to enforce the act. Why is a large section of the rural community being allowed to break the law with impunity? Is it because most of them are rich and influential?

Originally Posted by Duke of York

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It is classed as a 'sport' because it is a rich man's/woman's pastime (like the shooting of game birds) which even the royal family seem to enjoy therefore it must be acceptable :mad:

I'm now waiting for one of the red coat brigade to come on and defend it with expressions like "It is the best form of humane Fox control" "You don't understand the countryside" "If the foxes didn't enjoy it they wouldn't compete"

Duke of york was in discussion to mammalmans reference to hunting, And sorry but was it not at first a rich mans sport?? the likes of you, me, dogghound and many others would have only been involved to look after the animals etc. I believe in the day the name for those persons was "servants"

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Sorry. I thought someone in post No.14 declared it was rich persons sport. I was just setting the record straight.

I think it is important to protect our wildlife that is why i particularly want deer hunting to continue.

Any idea why it is bad farming to have small lambs outside?

I feel quite unsure of myself now!

Please dont feel unsure of yourself, there are so many ways of enjoying or supporting the wildlife. so many factors and individual contributes to the way it is.
You say it is important for you that deer hunting continues?? may i ask why, not to pull your hair out but a, to understand a different view and b, to show what i mean by individual contributes to the wildlife. What you see as important may not even be on anothers relevant list and vise versa. Unfortunately shooting always becomes a dangerous subject but as i said i believe each one of us is entitled to our own view on the outdoors. And in each of us there is something for others to learn from. Thats why WAB is so great

As for lambs, i am not a farmer and i am not always right. I stated my believe. At the end of the day any new born (and ill) animal or human left outdoors unable to protect itself is a bad affair. In this case we was speculating that either the weather or foxs could easily have been the end of the lambs short experience of life.
I can continue to speculate that there are more reasons for and against leaving baby lambs outside, at the end of the day it is what has been happening for many years, decades etc. But now with the facilities and higher risks, is not better to take more attentive efforts??

[FlyAgaric]

There is no point in arguing with someone who agrees with hunting. There is no way on this earth that they are going to see why its wrong. They have spent years justifying it in their own head, and making excuses why there is nothing wrong with it. Most of them do not know any different, and have been brought up with it. Just be happy you have the good morals to know hunting and killing animals for fun is uncivilised and wrong, in a way you should feel sorry for them.

They get on horses brandishing guns, many of them blowing horns, all feeling like big tough hunters with hounds all looking for a kill, chasing a harmless terrified small canine just in the name of “fun“, chasing it to exhaustion and then ripping it apart while they shout with joy like barbarous thugs, really what does that say about them?

If I was to get on a bike, blowing a horn, and chasing down stray dogs and then ripping them apart, id be arrested and thrown in a mental asylum. What is different from doing that and hunting foxes?

Feel proud of your views, being that the opponent you have, you should feel quite privileged.

By the way I have known the poorest of the poor joining in with Fox hunts, its not just the aristocratic.

[Meles meles]

Originally Posted by FlyAgaric

There is no point in arguing with someone who agrees with hunting. There is no way on this earth that they are going to see why its wrong. They have spent years justifying it in their own head, and making excuses why there is nothing wrong with it. Most of them do not know any different, and have been brought up with it. Just be happy you have the good morals to know hunting and killing animals for fun is uncivilised and wrong, in a way you should feel sorry for them.

They get on horses brandishing guns, many of them blowing horns, all feeling like big tough hunters with hounds all looking for a kill, chasing a harmless terrified small canine just in the name of “fun“, chasing it to exhaustion and then ripping it apart while they shout with joy like barbarous thugs, really what does that say about them?

If I was to get on a bike, blowing a horn, and chasing down stray dogs and then ripping them apart, id be arrested and thrown in a mental asylum. What is different from doing that and hunting foxes?

Feel proud of your views, being that the opponent you have, you should feel quite privileged.

By the way I have known the poorest of the poor joining in with Fox hunts, its not just the aristocratic.

No arguement here, just trying to understand all views on the wildlife.
Many would say i am just as bad for hunting Rabbit at times whilst living in the outdoors. Or the fisherman who leave swans to die, suffocated by the line. Everyone has their own views/opinions on each subject. I do believe in a broad shoulder and a broad mind. We already have enough narrow minded individuals in this country.

I am proud of my views and the knowledge in which i make them, but knowledge cn be expanded.
I know my ground and will stand on it when need be. But you will never know the answers unless you ask the questions, right??

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

.

I think it is important to protect our wildlife that is why i particularly want deer hunting to continue.



!

I am really puzzled at this statement. How does chasing a terrified animal with a pack of dogs and then killing it help our wildlife?

Kerry

[Ukwildlifeo]

I think Fox hunting started as a, for the lack of a better describtion, a poor mans sport. Then as it was taken up by the then upper classes, it became a tradition (or not depending on where you stand) with the 'working class' helping out. These days however its open to all, some cynics might say this is because there desperate for supporters, but then its up to you to decide in the end.

I personally think its pointlessly cruel and as much as this issue has been turned into a 'class war' there is the interesting point that 'working class' blood sports (Badger baiting etc) have been completely banned while Fox hunting, the 'upper class' sport has just had some watered down worthless law passed - which is organised by the local police cheifs mate so he has no fear of arrest. There was that case last year where although the hunter was found guilty, the police would takle up the case and the league against cruelo sports had to pay the £100,00 costs. BBC NEWS | England | Devon | Huntsman guilty of breaking ban And what punishment didi the man get? A £500 fine - something he and his countryside alliance buddies could easily afford

[demicav]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

I am a sheep farmer on Exmoor and I find your post quite bizarre !

I would be interested to know how or in what way I feed foxes and encourage them to breed on my farm?

Excuse me, how dare you address me in such a manner. I never said you personally fed and encouraged Foxes to breed on your farm. I said many hunters do, this IS a fact. People who hunt do it for fun NOTHING ELSE. I stand by my earlier post 100%. I'm proud of my beliefs and proud of who I am. I was not addressing you personally, however the same cannot be said for you.

[C C]

Originally Posted by Meles meles

No arguement here, just trying to understand all views on the wildlife.
Many would say i am just as bad for hunting Rabbit at times whilst living in the outdoors. Or the fisherman who leave swans to die, suffocated by the line. Everyone has their own views/opinions on each subject. I do believe in a broad shoulder and a broad mind. We already have enough narrow minded individuals in this country.

I am proud of my views and the knowledge in which i make them, but knowledge cn be expanded.
I know my ground and will stand on it when need be. But you will never know the answers unless you ask the questions, right??

Thumbs up from me.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I am really puzzled at this statement. How does chasing a terrified animal with a pack of dogs and then killing it help our wildlife?

Kerry

I don't think he is referring to hunting in this sense but probably using a dog to track deer and then shooting the deer - perhaps using the dog to then track the animal again if the shot doesn;t kill it outright.

Deer control is very very important much of our ancient woodland and upland ancient habitats are suffering from an explosion in deer numbers. Deer quickly breed to a point where there are so many, they just eat all the ground flora (at least the plants which aren't poisonous) and prevent trees from re-seeding, its a very real problem that affects all of the other animals that depend on these habitats.

[C C]

Originally Posted by FlyAgaric

There is no point in arguing with someone who agrees with hunting. There is no way on this earth that they are going to see why its wrong. They have spent years justifying it in their own head, and making excuses why there is nothing wrong with it. Most of them do not know any different, and have been brought up with it. Just be happy you have the good morals to know hunting and killing animals for fun is uncivilised and wrong, in a way you should feel sorry for them.

I have never killed a Fox, never will. But you seem to be tarring all hunters with the same brush. I could go on and say, that all people who strongly oppose hunting in any form, are Animal rights activists. These then go about releasing Mink into the wild, setting bomb packages and so on. But i don't.

[Gill Catton]

I also don't necessarily think you are sadistic for killing animals or even for enjoying it. We're probably only succesful as a species because of this desire. So long as the pleasure is only gained as a result of a clean kill and that sadness is felt for anything other than that I don't think its really that evil.....

If you eat meat and enjoy it - you're still enjoying the death of an animal. In our current age you can easily survive healthily as a vegan so you don't need to eat meat or enjoy the death of an animal albeit indirectly.

I hope all those people who work in abbatoirs enjoy killing animals and doing it efficently and cleanly to provide the rest of us with meat (and leather and soap and fruit pastilles)- otherwise it must be pure torture.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by C C

I have never killed a Fox, never will. But you seem to be tarring all hunters with the same brush. I could go on and say, that all people who strongly oppose hunting in any form, are Animal rights activists. These then go about releasing Mink into the wild, setting bomb packages and so on. But i don't.

Yes and there's a very clear difference between someone chasing an exhausted Fox halfway across the county before having it torn apart from a keeper quietly waiting in the dark with a spot light and a keen eye. Or between someone who shoots 150 partridge or 60 Rabbit only to bin them and a chap out with his gun, a labrador and a spaniel who takes a brace of pheasant for his dinner or a a few Rabbits both to protect his veg patch and for the freezer.

[stripee]

There have been a couple of successful prosecutions but not enough. There is more information on LAGS website League Against Cruel Sports - campaigning to end cruelty to animals in the name of 'sport'

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by FlyAgaric

There is no point in arguing with someone who agrees with hunting. There is no way on this earth that they are going to see why its wrong. They have spent years justifying it in their own head, and making excuses why there is nothing wrong with it. Most of them do not know any different, and have been brought up with it. Just be happy you have the good morals to know hunting and killing animals for fun is uncivilised and wrong, in a way you should feel sorry for them.

They get on horses brandishing guns, many of them blowing horns, all feeling like big tough hunters with hounds all looking for a kill, chasing a harmless terrified small canine just in the name of “fun“, chasing it to exhaustion and then ripping it apart while they shout with joy like barbarous thugs, really what does that say about them?

If I was to get on a bike, blowing a horn, and chasing down stray dogs and then ripping them apart, id be arrested and thrown in a mental asylum. What is different from doing that and hunting foxes?

Feel proud of your views, being that the opponent you have, you should feel quite privileged.

By the way I have known the poorest of the poor joining in with Fox hunts, its not just the aristocratic.

Great post, im 100% with you on this one mate.

Deer hunting no comment but i do know that it has alot of negative effects as well, including the fact most hunters look for the best trophies the stags etc, sometimes this lack of stags or larger stags can cause poor genetic's within the harem. And dont forget its mans hunting that has caused so many deer by reducing predators, its about time some people realize you have got to stop somewhere or eventually you will go all the way down the food chain until there is nothing left.

[C C]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

I lived in North Wales for a short time very close to a hunt kennels. I discovered from my ramblings that the hunt were feeding foxes at their earths with offal to assist with propagation and therefore more "sport" for their subscribers.
.

I have heard about this. Never known them to do this in my area though. My part of Wales is abundant with foxes, so i guess they have no need to.
It would also be a bit futile, for a country Fox hates any interferance at its cubbing earth. And would simply relocate the cubs.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Meles meles

Very rare a Fox wil go for a lamb, If a farmer allows a baby lamb (no bigger than a Rabbit) to be outside then he is more likely to kill the poor thing. The predator being the weather and mal-nutrition. Bad farming


As far as i know, most who shoot take their kill with them, its dinner or it could be money.
Rarely (on my walks) have I ever seen a a marksman not leave with their birds.



Due to the sadness of certain persons, they will shoot both Fox and Hen-Harrier, Even if the animal was just passing by.



Many factors keep the number of Fox down, and if anything we kill more Fox's with cars than with a gun.
weather, traffic, illness, mal-nutrition, man with out gun, man with gun, other animals.

Not picking holes in you, Just disagreeing to agree

Hill or upland farmers cannot keep all their flock indoors for lambing, they're need a huge barn and for such hardy outdoor animals I think it would be actually quite unkind. I am not a farmer I believe there are valid reasons for putting lambs out or not bringing in ewes for lambing. For one a lambing shed is not a clean or healthy place having all those ewes shut in together pooing and peeing and giving birth getting lambs out is probably better for their health.

Sick lambs indeed should be indoors, but as with all baby animals they can become sick very quickly and even when on a lowland farm with your sheep close by, when you have a large flock of maybe 100 - 200 sheep with half indoor lambing and half outdoors with new lambs can you imaging how hard it must be to check every single animal every day or even twice a day? I'd bet most sick lambs are taken before the poor frazzled farmer (24 hour working duirng lambing) know's they are ill and s/he has no chance to treat them.

Foxes are wily and clever and could easily take lambs even if a farmer is sat out with them all night, and they will take and take and take again because they are clever and take not only what they are hungry for now but for what they would eat in the future.

Do you sit out all night with your veg to protect them from slugs? or do you reduce the number of slugs?

Absolutely we run over lots of foxes - but this isn't targeted action, and if I had a choice and was able to, I'd stop it from happening because its for no good reason.

by the way I don't think anyone has come on here and said that the traditional hunting with hounds is ok?!!??

'hunting' is a very broad term and doesn't always mean that bloodsport with hounds

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Absolutely we run over lots of foxes - but this isn't targeted action, and if I had a choice and was able to, I'd stop it from happening because its for no good reason.

Why argue in the favour of killing foxes if you would stop road kill? is killing foxes in a hunt a good reason? Its the same thing a dead Fox is a dead Fox. Also what about other animals that "rarely take" livestock like foxes, should we kill all them as well?

[Gill Catton]

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