fox cub hunting

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by demicav

I have hard facts, many members of my family were heavily into Fox hunting, so believe me I know what I'm talking about. I never said they breed Foxes, they feed the Foxes which in turn encourages them to stay in a certain area and it's inevitable therefore that they will breed.
I actually don't have a problem with a farmer controlling animals on their farm but I believe it should be done humanly. Many huntsmen or women for that matter go on these hunts to satisfy their desire of enjoying the hunt itself and this has little to do with Fox control, they would still hunt whether there was a need for control or not. You as a farmer have an interest in keeping Foxes off your land and that's fine by me as long as it's done humanly, however after reading an earlier post of yours I'm not sure this is the case.

Thats fair enough.

But actually I don't want to keep foxes off my land.....just control their numbers.

I quite like to see them.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Kerry

From 'Running with the Fox' by Prof. David MacDonald of Oxford University notes:

?Where numbers ran short [caused by hunting and a mange epidemic] foxes were bought and released (such ?bagged? foxes sold for 10 shillings [50p] at the Leadenhall Market [in London] in 1845) and included a brisk trade in imports from the Continent.?



The following taken from this webpage: ANIMAL WELFARE INFORMATION SERVICE

Bagged foxes for hunting:
"On the hounds returning to the kennels, five were missing. The next morning the huntsman sent a man to Ruperra to look for the absent dogs. Three of them were found lying outside the drain, and two GOMER and COUNTESS in the hole, with a fox. The huntsmen soon after arrived, and the hounds, and a splendid male fox was dug out alive. The fox was bagged and brought to the Heath, where he is reserved for another day?s sport. He will be turned out in a few days, when the gallant Master of the hounds promises another hard days run to the tired sportsmen of Cardiff and neighbourhood." (Cardiff and Merthyr Guardian 2.3.1866 page 5 col.5 quoted in Master of Hounds. Fred, Vida and John Holley. Pub. V.A. Holley. 1987. Page 204)

"On Tuesday last the Pentyrch Hounds met at St. Fagans for the purpose of turning out a bag fox.

There was a large assembly present, amongst whom we noticed a party from St. Fagans Castle. The fox was turned out by the grandson of the Baroness Windsor and after a good run in the open was brushed by J.P. Booker, Esq., Master of the Pentyrch Hounds, and the brush sent by him to St. Fagans Castle, to the young representative of the Clive family." (Cardiff and Merthyr Guardian 12.10.1866 page 5 col.4 quoted in Master of Hounds. Fred, Vida and John Holley. Pub. V.A. Holley. 1987. Page 210)

"In Abe Pattinson's days a similar joke was played at Howtown~this time against the huntsman. A fox had been so desperately run that he took refuge in a stick heap and was secured alive by J. Waugh and Atty Grisdale, who took it to Howtown Hotel. Several of the hounds had been kennelled and the huntsman was returning home with the remainder. Prompted by that spirit of devilment which reigns eternal in the hunter's breast, the two natives liberated their "bagged" fox at the back door of the hotel, and he immediately stole off in the direction of Steel End. Someone, however, acquainted Abe with what had occurred and he immediately cast off the remaining hounds afresh, and before the lapse of half-an-hour they had run reynard down. Shortly before being run down the fox turned and pluckily faced the leading hound with bared fangs but found the odds too great." (Reminiscences of Joe Bowman and the Ullswater Foxhounds. W.C. Skelton. Pub. Atkinson & Pollitt. 1921. Pages 118-119. [Abe Pattinson was the huntsman for the Ullswater, a Fell pack, from the creation of the pack in 1873 to 1879] )

"Probably all hunting men whose lot is cast in a country where game is preserved to excess know all about the bag-fox, and what sort of creature he is to hunt, but fields are in these days of such enormous size, and so many of the men and women who go out hunting care so little for sport as sport, that when a fiasco occurs with a bagman they are often none the wiser...........

In one good country, which for obvious reasons we shall not particularise, we were trotting on to a meet in company with the master, and never having been in the exact locality before, we interrogated him as to the likelihood of sport. He was not sanguine as to the morning draw, and candidly told us that hounds would probably find quickly, but that he doubted the capabilities of any foxes in those coverts he was likely to draw first. He had realised the situation exactly; hounds found a fox which ran three hundred yards, and when the huntsman picked him up he shook a shower of chaff out of his coat. A second fox ran from one little spinny to another a quarter of a mile away. He had a broken bit of rope round his neck, and hounds would not break him up. At a lawn meet in quite a different country we saw a quick find in some laurels, and what appeared to be a genuine, good-looking fox broke away in view of a big field. He crossed a small park, and slipped under a gateway into a stubble field, securing a capital start, but he was quite dazed, and ran twice round the little enclosure he found himself in, never making any attempt to leave. He had not only an old, rusty collar round his neck, but part of a label attached." (The Complete Foxhunter. Charles Richardson, (Hunting Editor, "The Field"). Pub. Methuen & Co. 1908. Pages 28-30)

"But some shooting tenants, though possibly sincere enough themselves in their attitude towards the Hunt, have little or no control over their keepers, who either risk their master?s displeasure and produce no foxes, or more frequently commit a worse crime and turn down a bag-fox whenever their coverts are being drawn........It should be remarked that the Master cannot blame a keeper for turning down a bag-fox if he himself, or one of his own servants, is also in the habit of doing so." (To Hunt the Fox. David Brock. Master of the Thurles and Kilshane Foxhounds sometime Master of the East Sussex. Pub. Seeley Service & Co. Ltd., 1937. Pages 37 & 38)

Benefits of foxes: "One good work the fox does is the snapping-up of diseased game as soon as it becomes at all feeble, and thereby preventing the spread of the complaint. In the Eastern Counties, and elsewhere, coveys of partridges are frequently seen afflicted with gapes, and, when flushed, individual birds drop exhausted at intervals along the whole line of flight. These birds linger on from day to day, spreading the disease, but if foxes existed there all but the most vigorous would be promptly destroyed, and their capacity for harm at once brought to an end, with ultimate benefit to the rest of the stock." (Game And Foxes. F.W.Millard, (Secretary to the Gamekeepers? Association). Pub. Horace Cox. 1906. Page 107)
Caged foxes for hunting:
"Hearing hounds in front we pressed on and found them baying at a cage, which was placed in the middle of the covert in a tremendously thick place, and inside of which were two foxes~evidently ready for the draw which was to be made in a day or two. The hunted fox had probably gone on, but the master and one of his men were quickly on the spot, so that the situation was thoroughly grasped.

We have heard on what appeared to be absolutely reliable information that another pack of hounds came upon one of these cages in a big covert, and that, owing to the wire not being strong enough to resist their weight, they got inside, and quickly disposed of the half-dozen foxes which were being bottled up for future use. The story was told us by a master of hounds, and we have little doubt of its truth, because we have actually seen three of these cages~the one referred to above and two others." (The Complete Foxhunter. Charles Richardson, (Hunting Editor, "The Field"). Pub. Methuen & Co. 1908. Page 43)


Another interesting quote from a hunter again taken from the above webpage:

"As regards foxes killing lambs, there is a great deal of nonsense talked and of misconception about it. That a fox will undoubtedly kill one, if it is very weak, or sometimes, when a ewe has two, will nip up one whilst she is defending the other, is a fact; but it is only when they are very small. The ewe is quite capable of defending her lamb.....In almost every case where a fox is found eating a lamb, it has been killed by a dog, and generally by a sheep dog; more often than not by the lamb?s own shepherd?s dog.....I do not say that foxes never kill lambs, but I say that such an occurrence is very rare.....We make a rule that no poultry shall be paid for that are not shut up at night......I have had claims for calves and cows killed by foxes, but they are too ridiculous to require any remarks from me." (The Badminton Library. Hunting. The Duke of Beaufort & Mowbray Morris. Pub. Longmans, Green, and Co., 1885. Pages 154-156)

Nice and topical !!

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

I think the hunting act 2004 should be broken at every opportunity.

In fact I broke it this evening !!

It is ridiculous.

And it actually causes the death of more animals than before.

Well thats a first for me on WAB - some1 bragging about breaking the law, especially when it means being cruel to an animal. I sense a backlash coming!

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Well thats a first for me on WAB - some1 bragging about breaking the law, especially when it means being cruel to an animal. I sense a backlash coming!

What backlash ?

I had been doing some tractor work on my top fields and I wanted to leave the tractor there til the morning so I walked home with the dogs.

In one of my fields there was about 20 deer grazing so i sent the dogs to chase them into the wood.

According to the hunting act 2004 I was required by law to shoot them.

I didn't.

I broke the law.


But back to hunting, if you can give me a better solution for the survival of the deer, give it to me please !!

[Ukwildlifeo]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

What backlash ?

I had been doing some tractor work on my top fields and I wanted to leave the tractor there til the morning so I walked home with the dogs.

In one of my fields there was about 20 deer grazing so i sent the dogs to chase them into the wood.

According to the hunting act 2004 I was required by law to shoot them.

I didn't.

I broke the law.


But back to hunting, if you can give me a better solution for the survival of the deer, give it to me please !!

Ah I thought u meant in the sense of actually hunting and killing with dogs. And I agree in the way you've used the dogs, the law is stupid.

As for shooting deer - if the forest is suffering the deers numbers need to be comtrolled and in the absence of a natural predator, shooting with a trained marksman is the best option.

My issues with hunting are the unnessacery cruelty of a fox being ripped to pieces by a pack of hounds and the large estates killing BOP supposedly to protect their grouse.

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Ukwildlifeo

Ah I thought u meant in the sense of actually hunting and killing with dogs. And I agree in the way you've used the dogs, the law is stupid.

As for shooting deer - if the forest is suffering the deers numbers need to be comtrolled and in the absence of a natural predator, shooting with a trained marksman is the best option.

My issues with hunting are the unnessacery cruelty of a fox being ripped to pieces by a pack of hounds and the large estates killing BOP supposedly to protect their grouse.

I am glad we agree !

How can we abide by a ridiculous law?

No the main thing that suffers is our grass. At the moment no one is responsible for controlling the numbers of deer. The actual practicalities are down to many individuals and there fore many more will be shot.

The numbers will gradually go down until the herd becomes unviable.

I don't think the near instantaneous death of a fox from hounds is cruel. It is violent but extremely quick. The government suggests snaring. I am sure I am right.

[Parus Ater]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

It is all very strange!

I am not a small chap, ex 45 commando

How can you believe in a hunting ban if you don't believe in the judiciary.

I am surprised you have forgotten the name of the hunt.

My memory is much better...I hunt with the Minehead harriers and the Devon and Somerset Stag Hounds.

I know you! And who you are! Well in the world of t'internet anyway. I thought I recognised your style of writing.

Whats up? No decent arguments after the BEEB board closed? Although FlyAgaric is giving you a good run and I agree with what has been said by this poster.

Nice to see you by the way. So what have you had on your bird feeders lately?

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

It means they don't all get shot.

Fortunately there are more enlightened people in this world who are happy to have animals exist not just because someone wants to chase them and terrorise them for hours.

You have already pointed out in a previous post that it is quite possible to shoot them quickly without having to chase them, so the chasing is obviously done for nothing other than barbaric reasons.

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Yes, they are mainly.

Can't speak for the East Devon though !!!!

This man was a committee member and I am curious as to whether or not they have removed him from the committee and banned him from attending future events? If so, how soon after his arrest was this done?

[Kerry]

[quote=Deerhunter;172368]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Your post is ludicrous.

In what way does extensive farming cause Frankenstein animals ?

What Illness do I not pick up ?

Poor quality food? How?

Why is the Slaughterhouse journey appalling ?

I am beginning to wonder if you are actually involved in farming at all.

Anyone involved in farming is well aware of the welfare issues that are entailed when so many animals are kept by so few people. In the UK alone over 1 million sheep die every year from fly strike. Facts such as this are readily available via organisations such a the Min of Ag. Anyone with land will have the magazines and publications sent to them that are put out by organisations such as the Min of Ag. I have land and I get these publications sent even though I am not involved in farming.

If you are unaware of what goes into the foodstuffs for farm animals then I would suggest that you get information from the Food Standards Agency detailing the ingredients that are permitted in farm animal food. The list is made up of many, many bi-products including those from the fishing industry (sheep and cattle are most definitely not natural consumers of fish!) and the baking industry. All the dross that is left from the production of human food stuffs is used up to feed farm animals. It isn't highly nutritious or high quality. You will also be fully aware that the best quality grains are put into the human food chain and the poorer quality grains go for livestock food. Sadly many people have still not understood the link between the health of the animals that they eat and their own health.

All livestock has been selectively bred to produce animals that put on the maximum amount of meat in the minimum period of time. The long term welfare issues for these animals is not considered. Profit is the only consideration. Sheep have been bred to produce the maximum amount of wool and this leads to sheep that are prone to turning onto their backs at certain times of the year. If these sheep aren't found quickly enough they will die. I have spent a lot of time going into the fields over the years and turning these sheep. The farmer thanks me for doing it as he doesn't have the time to check up on them frequently enough to stop this happening.

Lambs have rubber bands put round their tails and their testicles to stop circulation so that they will drop off. I am sure you would not be happy with this procedure if you were to suffer such an appalling act.

Even slaughtermen will happily admit that the animals are terrified, so I find it difficult to believe that if you are involved in farming you have not even recognised this fear! It shows a very sad lack of comprehension on your part.

The saddest part is that we do not need this over production of food. There could be more land available for wildlife, animals that are in better health and fed decent quality foodstuffs that are inline with their natural diet.

We should also remember that all the meat used in this country does not come from the UK. The French were feeding sewage sludge, the Americans are feeding chicken manure, sewage sludge, newspapers, sawdust and even out of date chewing gum, including the wrappers. And we mustn't forget the BSE scandal due to feeding slaughterhouse waste to ruminants; if you are genuinely involved in farming then surely you know about this?

Whatever we eat, and where ever it comes from, it has an impact on this earth, and people need to be fully aware of that impact if they are to make informed choices on how they help the world to continue to exist and on how they benefit wildlife. Most of the consumers of meat are totally unaware of what goes on in farming and slaughtering and how the meat industry affects this planet and those that inhabit it. During the famine in Ethopia millet was being export from that country to feed cattle in Europe while people sat in front of their TV's eating meat and saying 'Oh God isn't it terrible all those starving people!' 25% of animal foodstuffs are imported from abroad.