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10-03-2006, 08:56 PM
| | New Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: West Sussex
Posts: 3
| |  Fox Hunting
Can anyone tell me why do people kill Fox's?. What damage do they do to the country side? |
10-03-2006, 10:37 PM
|  | Wild Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 165
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
HI Scavenger
essentially, foxes do little damage (take some lambs, take some chickens and other birds), certainly not enough to warrant the persecution they've suffered over the years. Hunting foxes has never been a major part of population control as not enough were ever killed this way; it is, and always has been, about people enjoying themselves. I have many beefs with the way the hunting ban was introduced, but on thewhole am glad that the basic legislation is there - even though it's full of holes 
Brains |
11-03-2006, 12:56 PM
|  | Active Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 74
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Brains HI Scavenger
................ glad that the basic legislation is there - even though it's full of holes
Brains | ......so many holes, it makes it almost impossible to police!
Neil |
11-03-2006, 01:36 PM
|  | Active Member | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cheviots
Posts: 67
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Foxes are a major predator of ground nesting birds, some of which are schedule 1 species, Hen Harriers for example.
Many conservation bodies control foxes on the quiet.
Rob |
11-03-2006, 04:11 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northants
Posts: 4,770
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Peolpe who keep chickens have said that foxs chew the legs off most of the birds in the coop and leave them for dead. The Fox does't take them for food. But don't cats kill for the sake of it too. They don't get hunted down. |
12-03-2006, 10:04 AM
| | Police Wildlife Crime Officer | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Blanefield, Scotland
Posts: 46
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
There is a very common misconception that Fox’s will enter a chicken coup, kill all the chickens and take only one. Yes the Fox will usually kill them all, but left to its own devices will return to eventually take all the chickens which are then buried or stored for leaner times. Usually after the initial commotion, the owner of the chickens are alerted, have a pot shot at the Fox which is then afraid to return. Hence’ they kill all and take only one’
And members are correct in relation to the hunting bill. Its a complete waste of time and as a cop on the ground, cannot enforce it. We had the legislation with regards hunting with dogs in Scotland a year before the legislation came into force in the rest of the UK. To my knowledge only one case has got as far as court and was subsequently thrown out due to the loopholes. The only good thing with regards the legislation is that it has given us more powers in relation to hare coursing.
Phil |
13-03-2006, 08:11 AM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 165
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by RobF Foxes are a major predator of ground nesting birds, some of which are schedule 1 species, Hen Harriers for example.
Many conservation bodies control foxes on the quiet.
Rob | HI Rob
that may well be true in some areas - and I have no problem with predator control where it can be shown to be necessary - but the 'hunting' of foxes, as we understand that term today, is another matter. That has always been said to be about predator control, but has never really been so. If foxes need to be controlled, then shoot them. But demonstrate that it's necessary first!
Brains |
13-03-2006, 07:00 PM
|  | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 551
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Fox hunting is a traditional way of controlling a predator that would come and take all of your chickens if it had the chance, and if those chickens were your lively hood would you do it? it stems from a time when it was neccercary, though foxes will still take fowl and lambs given the chance.
it annoys me when people say that it is just for fun, people having fun and a good ride out comes as a by product of the initial task.
as for shooting them - get a good clean shot on a Fox so that it dies quickly and dosnt suffer? the chances are very slim
although it may not be pleasant at least when hounds catch a Fox it is quick, and although there are other methods of control are they actually better for the foxes welfare? anyone i know that goes shooting would never shoot a Fox (unless it was the aim to control foxes eg on a farm).
if you go out shooting you shoot at any Fox.. if hounds are out they may only catch the old, ill or weak, therefore aiding the population.
if you go shooting there is no set time when you can kill a Fox, what happens to the cubs when the vixen gets shot?.. if you hunt foxes they respect their breeding times and give them an unofficial close season.
all in all it may not be 'nice' but in my head the plus points far outway the minus points....
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13-03-2006, 07:26 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cornwall..
Posts: 1,476
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
I am not in favour of Fox hunting, I do not like the thought of mr Fox getting ripped up by a pack of dogs, but saying that, I am not in favour of the government saying to the hunt (who have been hunting for eons) no, you cannot hunt anymore. Think I will stop there..................Jon (on the fence) |
13-03-2006, 07:27 PM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 132
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Please stop regurgitating this nonsense phoenix; if a Fox kills livestock, it's usually down to poor husbandry.
"they respect their breeding times and give them an unofficial close season" - where does 'cubbing' fit in then?
And hunts that operate in the cereal growing districts with no stock to 'protect' from foxes that they themselves import?
People having a ride out and the rural jobs they support are the only plus points. |
13-03-2006, 07:55 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 551
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
just having my say...
id rather see a Fox hunted as it is the most natural way rather than it be shot, traped and starved or poisened with other cosequences.
im not saying my veiws are right but they are my veiws and i wont be told not to express them.
you may not believe it, bacause im more for hunting than against, but i studied animal welfare for four years and i'm actually quite on the fence.
im a country lad and the veiws i have probably show this, but id like to think i can see the bigger picture and accept others veiws.
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13-03-2006, 07:58 PM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 132
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by pheonix id rather see a Fox hunted as it is the most natural way rather than it be shot, traped and starved or poisened with other cosequences. | If people looked after their stock better, they wouldn't need those alternatives, would they? |
13-03-2006, 07:59 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 551
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
ive known people shoot more foxes in one night than an organised hunt will get in a month.
and on hare coursing - i have been told of an area that has stopped organised coursing that paid for games keepers and what has happened since the keepers have since lost their jobs.. last year a dozon hares were caught at organised events, so far this year over 300 have been shot in the same area?!
i wonder how many people who comment on hunting because it is not 'nice' have actually been hunting or even know anything about it?...
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13-03-2006, 08:01 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 551
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by SteveA If people looked after their stock better, they wouldn't need those alternatives, would they? | a good point fenced in chickens are only fair game to a Fox and you cannot blame it for taking them, but what about upland sheep that may only see shelter for a few months of the year?
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13-03-2006, 08:03 PM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 132
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
I hope you're not reverting to that old tactic just for me. I haven't seen a hunt in action for over a week now. Been a few days since I shared my local with a master too.
<sigh> |
13-03-2006, 08:12 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Banbury, Oxfordshire
Posts: 551
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
no just for the general, it is often the case that people decide they are against the hunt before they have bothered to find anything out about it.
i say bring back the wolf - they will hunt the foxes and then it wont be an issue, we'll be discussing wolf hunting instead...
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14-03-2006, 09:25 AM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 165
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by pheonix ive known people shoot more foxes in one night than an organised hunt will get in a month.
i wonder how many people who comment on hunting because it is not 'nice' have actually been hunting or even know anything about it?... | HI Phoenix
If someone can shoot more foxes in one night than a hunt can get in a month, doesn't that make lamping a much more effective method of population control that hunting on horseback? All the figures for Fox mortality point to hunting having little or no impact on Fox numbers as only about 10% of foxes killed in a year were down to hunting.
And as for 'closed seasons' - you can have those if shooting/lamping is to be used just as easily as if hunting with hounds. And vixens are caught with hounds as well - especially those that are early breeders.
And sheep on open hillsides? The figures from studies done at York University show that even on hill farms, the number of lambs taken by foxes is about 2% of the total - weather kills FAR more.
And finally, since when did wolves hunt foxes? predators, as a general rule, do not hunt each other and there is no evidence that wolves or bears hunted foxes. Deer, yes; foxes, no. And do you think that a wolf would choose to hunt a Fox .... or a field full of sheep?????? I think the sheep would be a better bet!
I'm sorry to say, but the only justification for hunting foxes that stands up to the facts is that people find it fun to do; they like being able to ride over the countryside not knowing where they are going next or what obtacles they will have to overcome. I can understand that ..... but I wish that it would be used as the justification rather than this notion that it is somehow crucial in population control. The major elements of population control in the UK are the car, the snare and the gun - and the car probably wins!
Brains  |
14-03-2006, 09:36 AM
|  | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,667
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Fox hunting is a social event that gives a great adrenalin rush it employs people it gives Colour to a world of increasingly graying through political correctness (other than that it serves no useful purpose)
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14-03-2006, 09:37 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 4,284
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
extremely well put, Brains.
The pro-hunting lobby regularly raises the 'population control' argument and in practically the same breath defends hunting on the grounds that they don't actually kill many foxes.
A farmer near to where I live revealed the true nature of Fox hunting when he displayed a large banner in a field proclaiming 'Blair has taken our livelihoods now he wants to take our sport'.
Matt |
14-03-2006, 09:47 AM
|  | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 923
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
I'm also on the fence with this issue, but at the risk of eliciting a heap of vitriol I'd like to make a point regarding control. One of the arguements made by anti-hunt people is that many hunts provide artificial earths for foxes to breed. If this is true then the control of foxes arguement cannot be used-boosting the population in order to control it is illogical (captain). |
14-03-2006, 09:48 AM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 165
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by matt_xyz extremely well put, Brains.
Matt | Thanks Matt
I've been round the houses with this discussion elsewhere many many many times - and it always comes back to a sport. I will say that I don't really have much of a beef with the use of a few hounds to bring deer to bay (they are a prey animal afterall, who's natural predator would be the wolf), and recognise the conservation value of some shooting estates (although not the more secretive raptor control that also goes on  ). But I cannot get this argument for Fox control; nor indeed the need for hare coursing to protect the hare!
But I'm sure these arguments will carry on for many many more years yet!
Brains |
14-03-2006, 09:58 AM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,667
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
There is more violence in football than in Fox hunting and a Fox hunt is more interesting,except for the poor Fox,this is something primeval, hunting, stalking,motor racing,rugby,tennis etc. if you repress everything it Will be a
very lack-lustre world
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14-03-2006, 02:14 PM
| | Wild Member | | Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: east grinstead
Posts: 213
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
i have Fox hunted with 2 packs in the south of England ad been a guest at about 5 others over the countryside . i have enjoyed it ad readily admit i hunted for the thrill and not the kill, in all the time i have been hunted i was only witness to a kill about 4 times and it is nothing like it is often described . i no longer hunt because of a bad back (riding is painful) and the expense . In my opinion hunting would have passed quietly away because of the ever increasing expense the enlargement of motorways and roads along with the electrification of the rail network .I enjoyed my hunting and find Iwould hunt now if I could not to justify hunting but just to defy an ever invasive and morally bankrupt government |
14-03-2006, 03:51 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 4,284
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by MALCOLMX i have Fox hunted with 2 packs in the south of England ad been a guest at about 5 others over the countryside . i have enjoyed it ad readily admit i hunted for the thrill and not the kill, in all the time i have been hunted i was only witness to a kill about 4 times and it is nothing like it is often described . i no longer hunt because of a bad back (riding is painful) and the expense . In my opinion hunting would have passed quietly away because of the ever increasing expense the enlargement of motorways and roads along with the electrification of the rail network .I enjoyed my hunting and find Iwould hunt now if I could not to justify hunting but just to defy an ever invasive and morally bankrupt government | Of course, many would claim that chasing and killing animals for fun is morally questionable.
How should we distinguish between killing a Fox for fun and a group of kids taking pot shots at a swan with an air pistol for fun? Or tying fireworks to dogs for fun? Or the countless other acts of animal abuse which certain people get kicks from?
At what point should a civilised society say that killing animals for fun should be stopped? |
14-03-2006, 07:13 PM
|  | Frozen | | Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.E. Lincolnshire
Posts: 4,130
| | | Re: Fox Hunting
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Brains
And finally, since when did wolves hunt foxes? predators, as a general rule, do not hunt each other and there is no evidence that wolves or bears hunted foxes. Deer, yes; foxes, no. And do you think that a wolf would choose to hunt a Fox .... or a field full of sheep?????? I think the sheep would be a better bet! | Predators hunting predators:
When hungry, the wolves first instinct is to hunt their natural food prey such as deer etc.
But, wolves as predators, are in direct compitition with other predators, and will think nothing of killing a rival predator if they have the chance. In fact they often go out of their way to kill or at least haress them.
In Yellowstone National Park, where wolves were reintroduced, the cayotee population was drastically reduced as a result of being hunted by, and out competed by the wolves. When caught the cayotees were rarely, if ever ,eaten. They have also been recorded killing foxes', and again will rarely eat them. In fact they're more likely to just roll in them.
Dog hunting Fox is predator hunting predator. Remember the hunting foxhounds insticts, as all dogs, are inherited from the wolf. I've never witnessed a Fox hunt so don't know whether the hounds eat the Fox, but I would guess in many cases they don't.
Lions will often kill hyena. Eagle owls will often kill smaller owls and birds of prey such as buzzards.
I know this was a slight side point away for the this thread but thought these points were worth mentioning. | | | |
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