Magpies, Crows, etc - kill or not to kill

[Dr Dro]

I love to watch the antics of Crows, Magpies and Jays, they are very clever and interesting birds, but I have seen them first hand on many occasions raiding Songie's nests, Warblers nests, magpies with small chicks in there beaks and larger fledglings, Crows raiding Grey Partridge's nests, Golden Plover,s nests, (although we must include Lesser Black backs and Ravens on that one) Redshank's nests, many a snipe's nest, Woodcock,s nests and the list goes on. Sometimes it is the result of a raid that I have found but I have seen it happening while photographing from low ground hides. Cats are a factor, as are foxes and Stoats, but lets forget about them for now. I seen the resulting mess of a Short Eared Owl's nest sucked by Crows last year. A friend of mine likes to shoot Crows and Magpies with his air gun, on some ground he has permission to shoot on, when they come in to roost at night. He says that they are a terrible pest, responsible for the lack of Song Thrush chorus in Spring and Summer, amongst many other things. He has asked me if I would like to join him in a roosting shoot, as it is good sport, but I do not have the stomach to kill them and it makes me feel quite guilty, as they are only being Crows searching for food as there instinct instucts them to. So, is it right to kull Crows and magpies. Maybe we should include Lesser Black Backed Gulls, as they are a terrible pest as well?

[smartie]

I'm assuming your question relates to a matter of general principle rather to a situation where an excessive population of some creature or other threatens to destabilise a local ecology, in which case a cull may need to be considered.

On that basis I'd say no, it isn't right or justified in principle to kill these birds. As a number of other threads on this forum have demonstrated, there is no evidence that the natural behaviour of corvids in raiding other birds' nests is a significant factor in the decline in the populations of some of them. Loss of habitat through our use of land has much more to do with that. And if we are going to kill crows and magpies simply for predating on other species, will we do the same for herons and kingfishers who eat fish, or for owls that eat mice... you get my drift.

As you say, corvids are handsome, clever birds, and in my view we should appreciate them for what they are and let them get on with their entirely natural behaviour. And the notion that killing small creatures is "good sport" is one that I personally have no understanding of or sympathy with whatever.

[John]

Originally Posted by smartie

I'm assuming your question relates to a matter of general principle rather to a situation where an excessive population of some creature or other threatens to destabilise a local ecology, in which case a cull may need to be considered.

On that basis I'd say no, it isn't right or justified in principle to kill these birds. As a number of other threads on this forum have demonstrated, there is no evidence that the natural behaviour of corvids in raiding other birds' nests is a significant factor in the decline in the populations of some of them. Loss of habitat through our use of land has much more to do with that. And if we are going to kill crows and magpies simply for predating on other species, will we do the same for herons and kingfishers who eat fish, or for owls that eat mice... you get my drift.

As you say, corvids are handsome, clever birds, and in my view we should appreciate them for what they are and let them get on with their entirely natural behaviour. And the notion that killing small creatures is "good sport" is one that I personally have no understanding of or sympathy with whatever.

I have to agree with Smartie on this. I can't understand in this day and age why the lack of understanding regarding bird behaviour and feeding habits isn't more understood with all the information that is around. If you ask me people who shoot birds always look for justification on why they do it. The trouble is their arguments for shooting such birds is full of holes.

If we are to go down that road apart from the birds Smartie has mentioned you can add virtually all the birds of prey, including Owls, Shrikes and any other bird that predates. If that be the case where does it stop. Kill off all animals that predate other animals. Kill off all fish that predate other fish. Kill off all insects that predate other insects and even eradicate plants that trap and kill insects too.

In the end this is nature doing what nature has intended. Predators are only successful when there is plenty of prey around. If the prey species declines so do the predators.

Leave nature alone and it will balance itself out. Lets just sit back and enjoy the spectacle of nature with as little interference as possible.

John

[svenrufus]

Originally Posted by Dr Dro

A friend of mine likes to shoot Crows and Magpies with his air gun, on some ground he has permission to shoot on, when they come in to roost at night.

When you say he has permission to shoot, I trust you mean more than that the landowner has siad it's OK to do this. It is an offenc to kill any wild bird in the UK, although an exemption existsfor crows where "if it is to prevent serious damage to agriculture, or to preserve public health/air safety, or to conserve wild birds". Has your friend got such problems and has he made sure that what he is doing would fit into such regulations?

I agree with Smartie. The principle of killing the birds for the sake of a misunderstanding of ecology is not on. Many other threats to wild birds do more damage than a few nest raids ever will. For many birds, population levels are limited by the envionmental carrying capacity of their habitat in winter, and the population emerges from these lean times at more or less the same level every year. Almost any amount of predation can be accomodated within that natural cull - if more chicks were to survive to fledge, they would just die in winter as the food runs short.

Don't go out shooting, it is pointless at best, and diminishes your humanity. You might also question what basis you choose your friends on if he thinks this is 'good sport'.

[nightshade]

Corvids can be controlled by LICENSED trapping IF they are a particular nuisance
but my own experience points to Grey Squirrels as a bigger problem
Regarding the basis on how friends are chosen you should accept people for what they are,you do not have to condone their actions

[James_Owen]

As has been said, there's no excuse for randomly (and illegally) shooting crows on the understanding that generally they prey on the nests of some songbirds.
We can't always leave nature to look after itself, and there are instances when predator control is a genuine requirement for protection of biodiversity, at Welney WWT for example, wader numbers were significantly increased after Larsen traps were used to reduce an overpopulation of carrion crows. That was a humane, ecologically considered and evidence based decision, a far cry from popping off a few shots into a crow roost - something which is unlikely to have a long term affect on local numbers anyway.

I'd strongly urge not going, if I may say so this friend sounds like a bit of a plonker. Sounds like the 'songbird' is an excuse to do something wong which he nevertheless finds quite fun.

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Sounds like the classic "blame the Magpie" arguement to me

There isn't a great deal of evidence to suggest that any of the Crow family significantly effect the numbers of other species. For millions of years these species have lived side by side and they are both still here, proving that these species can live quite happily in the same environment

If we are talking about unnatural species killing songbirds then surely Cats will be much more of a problem!

[badgerwatcher]

In my experience as mother of three sons, many boys like guns and weapons of all kinds. I can understand the fascination with using a precision pioece of equipment skillfully.
But DON'T try and make it ok by saying that you are shooting birds because they kill other birds that you like!
Are you GOD?
Shoot tin cans off a fence, and don't diminish your soul!

[Crested Newt]

Generally this is one of there main prey. Chicks and Fledglings are an easily accesable food for them and I agree nature does what it does and should not be interfered with. Nature is survival of the fittest sadly.

[nightshade]

Originally Posted by badgerwatcher

In my experience as mother of three sons, many boys like guns and weapons of all kinds. I can understand the fascination with using a precision pioece of equipment skillfully.
But DON'T try and make it ok by saying that you are shooting birds because they kill other birds that you like!
Are you GOD?
Shoot tin cans off a fence, and don't diminish your soul!

I was secretary of a Field Target Club. This is precision air-rifle shooting ,the idea was that nationally it would bring young (and old)air gun users into a sport and "off the street"It was a sport that this country excelled in, we beat almost every country but the politically correct said guns "no no".Without good publicity the sport sagged and only attracted the wealthy,and the youngsters went back to pot-shotting anything that moved very sad