Magpies, killing for fun

[gazz292]

Was out walking the dog yesterday, and heard a bit of a rucus up ahead, cawing and that, thought it was some crows with a rabit carcas or something.

so i was a little shocked to get past the trees blocking my view, and see a mob of magpies repeatedly dive bombing a hedge, occasionaly one would land, and it looked like it was probing for something.

Then i saw one fly off with a nestling, and i sent the dog in to scare them off.

i found a blackbirds nest in the hedge, with 2 nestlings inside with their heads cut off!!!!
there was also another head but no body, i guess that went with the magpie that flew off just before i got there,

there were 2 nestlings left alive, about 3 days old i'd guess, and most of the nest had been ripped appart.

i have the 2 survivors with me now under a heat lamp and they are doing fine, i also have a fledgling blackbird the cats brought in a couple of days ago, it's amazingly good at being a surrogate mum nestling on them to keep them warm, i just have to take it off the 'nest' at feeding time as it has no qualms about pooing over the nestlings.

I walked back to the main path, and came accross the other nestlings body, so the magpie that took it haddnt taken it for food it seems, (my dog didnt chase that one, it was a hard job getting her to chase off the ones attacking the nest as she's so soft and shows no hunting instinct at all)

Anyway, my question....
does anyone know if the magpies were after the nestlings for food, and me disturbing them caused them to leave them, or were they doing what i think they were, killing them for fun? (they flew off a fair distance away, so i don't think they have a nest nearby, as i'd imagine they'd have been attacking me if i was too close to it if they do it to defencless nestlings)

Surely blackbirds are no threat to them, it's not like theres a shortage of food to compeat over,

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by gazz292

Anyway, my question....
does anyone know if the magpies were after the nestlings for food, and me disturbing them caused them to leave them]

In all probability, yes.

Cheers,

Adam

[The Woodman]

Agreed Adam. gazz292 - you have described typical Magpie nest predation behaviour and I think you disturbed them as to cause them to leave the survivors. The Magpies wouldn't have attcked you if you got too close.

Blackbirds pose no threat to Magpies, they only present them with an easy meal.

There's no "fun" factor either - predators eat to survive - all part of nature.

No different to the behaviour your cats get involved in but at least you can do something about that.

[bigdave60dog]

Birds definately do play. Anyone who keeps hens running loose will see them pick up a big piece of food then show it to the others who will then give chase. After watching this on numerous occasions for hours I am convinced that they are playing just like dogs and cats play. Parrot keepers will tell you that their birds play.
I once watched a pair of Ravens in Wales. Every morning they would fly over a Peregrines nesting site and do a very definate imitation of a perigrine "stoop" form a great height, repeated up and down untill the poor peregrines rose to the bait.
The ravens would then harrass the falcons untill they got fed up and moved on.
This happened every morning for the week that we were in that place. I am sure that they were deliberately baiting the Peregrines who would never rise up if they were left alone. The Ravens were not as far as I could tell after eggs or young. They were just winding Falcons up.
Later in the year I saw one of the same Ravens drive young Peregerine into the sea to it`s death.
Many animal behavioursits will testify to the intellect and playfulness of Corvids. Ripping young birds up before or even instead of eating them is just a bit of fun to them.
Dave

[gazz292]

apparantly the behaviour i saw was typical of a mob of magpies, according to a few 'experts' on a british bird breeding site, magpies seem to enjoy nothing more than a spot of flying low over hedges, spotting blackbird nests, then swooping down to snip the heads off the young in the nest,

they then fly on to the next nest and do the same, it's apparantly been seen that they will clear an entire hedge row of blackbird nests, and in every case they leave the bodies behind, so it's not for food, it's just a sport to them.

RE: the cats thing, they are not my cats, but my girlfriends, i dont particulary like cats due to their behaviour (feed them the best quality food money can buy, provide them with lots of play things, scratching posts, cozy sleeping beds, give them all the love they can take, and the little buggers still go out and hunt the local wildlife for fun... and one of 'ours' likes nothing better than to bring in mice, frogs or small birds, to eat in his bed, it's deffo not a 'present' to show apreciation to it's owners as my GF claims, as trying to get it off him results in him running off with it, to be seen eating it somewhere else a little later)

theres even a local person who has a few cats that refuses to put bells on their collars, claiming the tinkeling noise will annoy the neigbours!!!!!
i'd rather hear tinkeling all night long than the screams of frogs being chewed on, or the desperate squarking of parent birds trying to protect their nests.

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by gazz292

i have the 2 survivors with me now under a heat lamp and they are doing fine, i also have a fledgling blackbird the cats brought in a couple of days ago, it's amazingly good at being a surrogate mum nestling on them to keep them warm, i just have to take it off the 'nest' at feeding time as it has no qualms about pooing over the nestlings.
Anyway, my question....
does anyone know if the magpies were after the nestlings for food, and me disturbing them caused them to leave them, or were they doing what i think they were, killing them for fun? (they flew off a fair distance away, so i don't think they have a nest nearby, as i'd imagine they'd have been attacking me if i was too close to it if they do it to defencless nestlings)

Although this sort of thing can be distressing for some people to see it is nothing more than the Magpies taking advantage of an easy food source. Typically when people accuse wild animals of "killing for fun" it is because their presence has caused the prey to be left behind - or has prevented them from returning to collect excess prey that they have been able to kill.

Also (although it is a touchy subject), no one who releases a predator that does not naturally occur into an environment (a domestic cat that is allowed to roam) has any right to complain about the actions of a predator that should naturally be present in the ecosystem. [and I do realise that you have said that they are your girlfriends cats, not yours, and that you don't like cats].

Originally Posted by bigdave60dog

Birds definately do play....

[etc - rest of post removed]
I think that it is correct to say that there is a certain element of play in some behaviours observed in some birds. However the examples that you quote can pretty much all be explained as behaviour that would aid survival (including the 'harassing' of Peregrines by Ravens.

Originally Posted by gazz292

apparantly the behaviour i saw was typical of a mob of magpies, according to a few 'experts' on a british bird breeding site, magpies seem to enjoy nothing more than a spot of flying low over hedges, spotting blackbird nests, then swooping down to snip the heads off the young in the nest,

they then fly on to the next nest and do the same, it's apparantly been seen that they will clear an entire hedge row of blackbird nests, and in every case they leave the bodies behind, so it's not for food, it's just a sport to them.

Absolute, complete and utter rubbish!

This is the sort of thing that you hear repeated time and time again (sometimes embellished with details that supposedly 'prove' how cruel the Magpies are).
Yes, Magpies do take the eggs and young of other birds, and yes it is distressing to see because they are not as well designed for killing as birds of prey so the killing may not be as quick. They may also occasionally systematically work their way along a hedgerow searching for birds nests (usually when humans have trimmed the hedge back so much that it makes the nests easy to find). However, this is nothing more than an example of a bird using it's intelligence to take advantage of an available food source.
It is not for 'sport', they do this for food.

[~T~]

I totally agree with RoyW. Your 'experts' are talking nonsense. It's the same with the age old myth about foxes killing a coop of chickens for 'fun'. What the fox and magpie are doing are finding an easy food source and exploiting it as quickly and efficiently as possible as in nature you never know when you are going to get such a good bonanza of food. In many cases the animal is disturbed after they have dispatched all or most of the prey and to us that looks like they have done it for fun. But if let undisturbed they will take and eat(or in many cases cache)everything they kill.

I had the opportunity to witness this behaviour myself late last year when I took in an injured magpie. The first thing I fed it were several large locusts that I had for my geckos(they had grown too big for them actually). I dropped a couple into the box where I had the magpie and it immediately pounced on the first one and pecked at the head area killing it and then instead of eating it did the same to the second before eating them both. I dropped in another 3 or 4 and again it killed each one in turn before eating them.

Nature can seem very cruel to us that's the way it is, predators can't just pop round to the local shops for some pre killed food like we can.

[The Woodman]

I didn't want to get embroiled in this but still maintain that birds and other animals do not kill for fun or sport. They have no concept of this.

Like many others I have seen birds and mammals toying with their prey.

They don't catch it to play with it , they catch it to eat it. All subsequent related behaviours are incidental for whatever reason.

RoyW has summed it up. ~T~'s comments are apposite, too.

[gazz292]

well i guess the 'experts' see any birds/animals/people who harm the birds they are breeding as evil,

and of course being the part owner of cats (even if it was a case of love me love my cats) i cant really comment on nature being cruel, heck, us humans dont exactly have a good track record when it comes to killing/harming animals for 'fun'

and of course i've interfeered with nature but 'saving' the 2 chicks, but i'm not going to feed them to the cats or chuck them out to 'fend for them selves' especially as they are doing so well,

the fledgling is coming on brilliantly too, just learning to catch his food himself, flying better and better every day, not be long till his release.

[faz]

the only animal that kills for fun is human