Chiffchaff?

[Xurek]

Took a walk around Dundrum Bay yesterday and spotted about 10 or so of these little guys flying around. I'm thinking Chiffchaff but just after some confirmation. Sorry about poor quality photo, they don't like to sit still do they!

Thanks for your time!

[Johnny81]

Gonna dive in here, and probably get shot down I guess this your only photo? Can't see leg colour, from what I can see from this photo the primary projection looks short ish!. Really difficult to tell here, so gonna tentatively say Chiffchaff. Can the amount of yellow on the chin/above belly be a good identification feature from here, not sure it is!?

Expecting a long thread here!

[Xurek]

Hi Johnny,

Was finding it very difficult to get decent pictures, most are too blurry or obstructed by something. I do have this other photo but that is definately the best I can do. Can see a leg in this one.

[Johnny81]

I am thinking Willow warbler now! Lets see what others think! EEEk!

[diggleken]

Here we go ............
Willow Warbler in my view.
Cheers
Ken

[aeshna5]

Willow Warbler for me too. A few coming in at Dungeness yesterday + found a couple singing locally today in west London.

[Xurek]

Thanks much appreciated.

Can I ask you what, in your eyes seperates them both when identifying?

[Chas]

I would say Willow Warbler but notoriously hard to separate. You may be interested to know that when I was training to be a BTO ringer, my trainer......... a real expert on any level told me not to rely on the often used advice about leg colour, flesh coloured for Willow and dark for Chiffchaff because scientifically that is inconclusive (regardless what others may say). Also both species vary in colour and subtle markings depending on age and time of season..... and finally photographs can be misleading because of different light when it was taken and white balance settings on the camera. This also applies to the oft used "mantra" about primary projection because the angle that the photo was taken can give the illusion of long or short. Twitchers, as a badge of honour will tell you that they can "always" tell the difference......... scientifically they can't. The only way 100% is to see a male singing! Were yours? But beware, only yesterday I heard both Chiffchaffs and Willow Warblers singing in the same little copse. It could have been quite easy to photograph a Chiffchaff and call it a Willow because you had just heard the opposite species. Mine field eh!

[RoyW]

Based on the features visible I would be pretty confident in saying that both of these photos show Willow Warblers - that doesn't mean that all of the birds that you saw were Willow Warbler though (the first 'wave' of Willow Warblers has now arrived, but there are already lots of Chiffchaffs around).

There are lots of different features that you can look for to help you to separate the two, but there is considerable overlap. These do include leg colour, but as Chas has pointed out this is not reliable - most Chiffchaffs have dark legs and most Willow Warblers have paler legs, but some of each don't fit the rules! Primary projection is usually a good feature if you are able to judge it properly (the bird in the photo does have a fairly long primary projection but it isn't easy to make out).
Other useful features include the face pattern (stronger & longer pale stripe over the eye, paler ear coverts, more prominent dark line through eye, and less obvious lower half to pale eyering on Willow Warbler), overall plumage (generally duller, browner above and less 'clean' below on Chiffchaff), behaviour - Chiffchaffs common repeatedly dip their tails while moving about, and both songs and calls.

Originally Posted by Chas

Twitchers, as a badge of honour will tell you that they can "always" tell the difference

I'm guessing that you haven't based this on a particularly large sample of "twitchers". Those with less birding experience might make this claim, the vast majority would more likely tell you that given sufficiently good views you can generally tell the difference relatively easily.

Originally Posted by Chas

The only way 100% is to see a male singing!

No, the only way to be 100% certain is to take, and analyse, a DNA sample - but you can be pretty confident about an ID of a singing individual!
You can also be pretty confident about the ID of a non-singing individual that has been observered closely, especially (but not necessarily) in the hand or if it has been calling.

[Chas]

I would agree with you Roy.