Twitchers

[FUDGEY]

Well this might not go down to well on here, but I feel it needs to be said. I am lucky enough to live in an area where I very rarely bump into these people as I have a huge area that isn't heavily populated. I also steer clear of the places I possibly could bump in to them. I love looking at birds, but photographing them is my favourite part of it. Today I travelled quite a long way to try photograph my 1st ever Hawfinch. After a lot of homework I set off to the venue at 4am and I arrived at my destination before 1st light. I parked my car up where I was told they could be, put the scrim net up, blacked out the other windows then bean bag and camera in position. I sat quietly for 4 hours in wait. Eventually several birds came and I got a few pics at a greater distance than I would have liked. A few minutes after they landed they flew up in the tree tops disturbed by an RSPB lady who asked me to move. I did briefly, but after a heated discussion I went back. After 30 mins or so down they came, but once again they were spooked by 2 twithchers who came to have a closer look. This continued constantly for the next 3 hours until I decided enough was enough. There was a lot of Twitchers there today and 90% of them closed in when they landed and spooked them as they were about to feed in this area where they Iike to forage. Must have happened a dozen times. Can some one explain to me whos hobby it is to do this if this is common practice amongst them? Surely any half clued up birder would have the common sense to know these birds were coming down to feed and aproaching them in the manner they did would spook them? Another question I'd like answered if possible is why do they feel the need to get as close? Surely 30 yards away with a good scope offers you everything you need? Perhaps I'm missing something. One thing I will say is photographers in general have far more field craft and consideration than Twitchers. I probably won't reply to this thread for a week as I'm away to Romania in the early hours, but I look forward to hearing the responses. I am not trying to cause an argument, I just don't get it.

[Dogghound]

I understand what you are saying, its unfair to label all twitchers like this though, technically you were twitching too. I do a lot of twitching and general birding and you get people like this what ever you do. These people could have been the public or just local birders. I would'nt have thought a (dare i say it) abundant species like hawfinch would attract a large number of twitchers to an area. No matter what you do in birding you always get people who harass birds or get to close, or are totally ignorant to other people.

[david156]

Originally Posted by FUDGEY

One thing I will say is photographers in general have far more field craft and consideration than Twitchers.

I would say that its about equal. There's incompetence in both parties.

Had a look at your photos on flickr. Great series of shots - well done.

[Ukwildlifeo]

There are some bad twitchers out there, as with many hobbies there are bad apples. There are polite and well behaved ones too, some of which will pull those acting stupid in line - Im thinking of a couple of wabbers in this well behaved category (that have pulled others in line!) but they shall remain nameless.

However Im yet to have a good experience in a place where a twitch is occuring. Ive had twitchers giving me the eyeball in my own 'patch' for daring to walk into the same area as them with a camera, yet I was well behind them (and the bird was long gone - possible due to them). Another time at Rainham I was clearly photographing a stonechat when a twitcher marched up to me and demanded to know where the bean goose was, scaring of the stonechat I had carefully stalked close too. When I dared to say "sorry I don't know" he looked at me in disgust and tutted loudly at me before walking off. A bit later I caught up with the stonechat and guess who came charging by scaring it off again. Obviously he had already ticked stonechat that year....

The bit that makes be laugh is twitchers accused photographers of scaring off birds etc when the organised flushing of an already exhausted bird that has got lost migrating from America or Asia seems to be an accepted way of getting a tick to many of them.

[Jason Green]

Evening Fudgey,

Originally Posted by FUDGEY

Well this might not go down to well on here, but I feel it needs to be said. I am lucky enough to live in an area where I very rarely bump into these people as I have a huge area that isn't heavily populated. I also steer clear of the places I possibly could bump in to them. I love looking at birds, but photographing them is my favourite part of it. Today I travelled quite a long way to try photograph my 1st ever Hawfinch. After a lot of homework I set off to the venue at 4am and I arrived at my destination before 1st light. I parked my car up where I was told they could be, put the scrim net up, blacked out the other windows then bean bag and camera in position. I sat quietly for 4 hours in wait. Eventually several birds came and I got a few pics at a greater distance than I would have liked. A few minutes after they landed they flew up in the tree tops disturbed by an RSPB lady who asked me to move. I did briefly, but after a heated discussion I went back. After 30 mins or so down they came, but once again they were spooked by 2 twithchers who came to have a closer look. This continued constantly for the next 3 hours until I decided enough was enough. There was a lot of Twitchers there today and 90% of them closed in when they landed and spooked them as they were about to feed in this area where they Iike to forage. Must have happened a dozen times. Can some one explain to me whos hobby it is to do this if this is common practice amongst them? Surely any half clued up birder would have the common sense to know these birds were coming down to feed and aproaching them in the manner they did would spook them? Another question I'd like answered if possible is why do they feel the need to get as close? Surely 30 yards away with a good scope offers you everything you need? Perhaps I'm missing something. One thing I will say is photographers in general have far more field craft and consideration than Twitchers. I probably won't reply to this thread for a week as I'm away to Romania in the early hours, but I look forward to hearing the responses. I am not trying to cause an argument, I just don't get it.

Sorry Fudgey, but in my opinion with you travelling out of your way to photograph an elusive bird - that makes you a twitcher by definition. The people in question may be new to birding (it may also be their 'stomping ground') and not having yet picked up on certain bird-watching skills. What makes them 'twitchers' though, as opposed to just 'interested' park users - did they travel or come equipped with any gear? They may need nurturing and your assistance to improve, and not to be called 'twitchers' as a means to insult them because you didn't get to see the birds in the way you deserved. Not all 'twitchers' are inconsiderate and clumsy. Some are very knowledgeable.

As for birders having more consideration over 'twitchers', it may further have been more considerate of you to obey the parking directions of the warden, rather than argue because you want a photo...

I'm not 'having a go' Fudge, I just think they could have done with your help, and to point out a little innocent irony. Enjoy your holiday!

Take care,

Jason

[Doggle Avaddit]

Originally Posted by FUDGEY

A few minutes after they landed they flew up in the tree tops disturbed by an RSPB lady who asked me to move. I did briefly, but after a heated discussion I went back. .

Sorry, you've just lost all respect and credibility here, IMHO.

[Doggle Avaddit]

You know, I always laugh when people complain about the traffic.

What they don't seem to comprehend is that they ARE the traffic.

[miccro]

id count myself as a photographer and not a 'twitcher' as for me its more about getting the shot than ticking off a bird on a list....so maybe not a lister....definition of twitcher is... i dunno...

what i will say is that there seems to be a bread of twitcher/ lister that causes trouble, i think those of us who want a particular photo spend a longer time observing the birds, their lives and their behaviour because we spend longer with most individual subjects in order to get an opportunity for a clean shot, this challenge is what i like about birding/ wildlife photography, id happily sit and photograph/ watch small common birds up close to see their life pan out, where as id hate to be dragged to get a long distance spec of a view of some rare thing.

im siding with FUDGEY as i have encountered some pretty rude individuals who seem to regard photographers as beneath them, on several occasions ive set up in full field craft and spent time sat waiting for a good opportunity when intense listers/twitchers or what ever - have walked up and tapped me on the shoulder asking what i can see.. scaring off everything in sight. the worst was only a couple of weeks ago - i was photographing some goldfinches, i know not rare but it was what i wanted to do at that time, a guy strode right up to me scaring them away and barked if i was local... when i replied i suppose i was ..he ordered me to take him to see the grey shrike ( i had seen it by chance earlier) when i told him where it was he looked me dead in the eye as to imply that i had told a lie since i was not going to take him personally to the area, he asked what i was photographing and when i replied goldfinches, he went bright red - almost had a coronary- and with distaste marched off with his poor wife in tow.

can of worms topic tho...

mike

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by Jason Green

As for birders having more consideration over 'twitchers', it may further have been more considerate of you to obey the parking directions of the warden, rather than argue because you want a photo...

IMO the above quote says it all really.

You obviously planned things well, and it sounds like you had an ideal set up to avoid causing disturbance (and if things happened exactly how you described them in this thread the RSPB representative, who may well have been a volunteer, perhaps could have handled the situation better). However, you seem to be of the opinon that you were entitled to view the birds from a closer distance than anyone else simply because you wanted close photos and in your opinion your field craft was better (it sounds like it actually was - but that's not the point).
When the presence of birds is publicised, enabling people to travel to see them (and this includes you - you were "twitching" on this occasion), the people who make the journey will vary in their level of fieldcraft from 'accomplished expert' to 'bull in a china shop'. There may be people (almost always volunteers) on site to try and manage the visitors, and prevent the ones who possess zero fieldcraft from causing disturbance - the problem is that if those people see others closer than them, including responsible photographers, it is very difficult to stop them walking up so that they are just as close. Remember that volunteers cannot physically restrain people, and someone who knows nothing about fieldcraft will simply think "If he got that close without disturbing the bird it's obviously OK to walk up for a closer view" - they may also think that they will then be able to take a frame filling shot with the compact camera the have in their pocket.
I have helped "warden" twitches before and know that they frequently pass without a problem. If a few people go where they shouldn't (whether it is on to private land, or just closer than requested), others will unfortunately follow - I guess that's just human nature.

Sorry Fudgey, but in this case I believe that you were in the wrong, and the problems that you had with disturbance were in part your own fault. If you travel to see a species at a publicised site then you must always follow the viewing instructions given (whether given beforehand or by someone on site for the purpose) - even if your own field craft will allow you to approach much closer. Twitching and photography largely don't mix. If you want to be able to get as close as your fieldcraft will allow you need a site that has not been publicised. Unfortunately I have to say that your behaviour in this instance is one of the things that gives photographers a bad name with twitchers (and although I rarely twitch anything that isn't very local these days, I am -or have been- a twitcher and photographer so can see both sides).

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by miccro

im siding with FUDGEY as i have encountered some pretty rude individuals who seem to regard photographers as beneath them, on several occasions ive set up in full field craft and spent time sat waiting for a good opportunity when intense listers/twitchers or what ever - have walked up and tapped me on the shoulder asking what i can see.. scaring off everything in sight.

Although in the instance that Fudgey describes he was himself a twitcher, and would not have travelled to try and photograph the Hawfinches if viewing had not been made available and publicised - therefore he should have followed instructions given to him on site even if it meant that he couldn't get the shot he wanted. If he didn't need to follow instructions about how close he should be then why does he feel that any other visitor should?

As for the "intense listers/twitchers or what ever" walking up and taping you on the shoulder when you are trying to photograph something and scaring everything else off - think about it, doesn't that sound exactly like the reaction that you'd get from "Joe Public"?
In my experience, the majority of twitchers are actually experienced birders who know better than to walk straight up to another observer (especially one obviously looking through a camera), the usual reaction would be to follow their line of sight and try and work out what they are looking at.
Of course, there are an awful lot of people who go straight into twitching (or just birdwatching) without learning any fieldcraft at all - but the same proportion go into wildlife photography on an equally unskilled basis. There is nothing to be gained by labelling everyone based on the actions of an inexperienced and/or selfish minority.

Originally Posted by miccro

can of worms topic tho...

You can say that again!