hen harrier report 2010

[captaincarot]

The RSPB: News: Illegal persecution killing Britain's hen harrier population


yet another damning indictment of britains shooting fraternity.

though no doubt they will claim it is mere coincidence that the only are showing an increase in hen harrier numbers over the last 7 years has no grouse moors

[Jim Ford]

The gamekeeper responsible should be arrested and hauled before the local magistrate. Errm, wait a minute - the magistrate will probably be the local landowner and the gamekeeper's boss, and the local police chief the landowner's shooting partner!

Jim

[RoyW]

[quote=captaincarot;739350yet another damning indictment of britains shooting fraternity.[/QUOTE]
Yet another accusation, but certainly not an "indictment".
Unless I'm mistaken about the definition, an indictment is a formal accusation that requires specifics about the alleged crime (not an accusation of crime that is believed to have taken place based on circumstantial evidence).




Although I have no doubt at all that some gamekeepers do persecute raptors, and this will have an effect in areas where the species concerned are scarce, or perhaps declining as a result of other reasons, I cannot see how press releases like this one (that seem to place the blame entirely on gamekeepers with little more than circumstantial evidence) really do much good. Working with the owners and keepers of grouse moors is surely a better way of helping to increase the Hen Harrier population rather than criticising all owners/keepers at every opportunity.

Originally Posted by captaincarot;739350though no doubt they will claim it is mere coincidence that the only are[B

a[/b] showing an increase in hen harrier numbers over the last 7 years has no grouse moors

I haven't had time to have a proper look through the jncc report, or seen full details of the 2010 Hen Harrier survey figures, but are you certain that this is a valid claim? For example, without seeing a breakdown of the numbers of Hen Harriers in specific parts of Scotland how do you know that there hasn't been an increase in some areas where shooting does take place?

Also, if the blame for the low numbers of breeding Hen Harriers is to be placed on the illegal activities of some grouse moor gamekeepers, how would you account for the fact that the Isle of Man Hen Harrier population (where there is apparently no grouse shooting) fell from 57 to 29 pairs between 2004 and 2010? The RSPB press release states that "reasons for this are unclear" - perhaps the same unknown reasons are affecting the parts of Scotland where Harriers are scarce?

Despite the welcome increase in the number of pairs in Wales, the 57 pairs in 2010 represents only 22-23% of the predicted potential number of pairs (while the scottish population is nearer 30% of the predicted potential number of pairs) - so although there has been an increase in Wales it is hardly the success that it is being made out to be (perhaps the increase will continue in future years, perhaps not...).

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

The gamekeeper responsible should be arrested and hauled before the local magistrate. Errm, wait a minute - the magistrate will probably be the local landowner and the gamekeeper's boss, and the local police chief the landowner's shooting partner!

Jim

So when there is enough evidence to support a prosecution why not make the landowners equally accountable (ie. bring in the vicarious liability laws that the RSPB support)? It would still be difficult to prove persecution in most cases, but it is unlikely that many gamekeepers who do persecute raptors do so without pressure from the landowners.
I don't think that it is right imply that all landowners and keepers with shooting interests are equally guilty of raptor persecution (which is what tends to happen), but those who are need to be made accountable.

[rossy]

if you read the report it states that , persucution is the main reason, for the birds to decline, and that gamekeepers are being forced to kill the birds , by orders of the landowners, its serious in scotland , no surprises there ! and numbers are down 21 % wales dosent seem to have a problem, and only a few breed in england, but i agree that if birds are found shot or poisoned on whoevers land the owner should be fined, and every time it happens up the fine, that way the gamekeepers wont carry the can for his lordship, rossy.

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by rossy

if you read the report it states that , persucution is the main reason, for the birds to decline, and that gamekeepers are being forced to kill the birds , by orders of the landowners,

Not exactly (not the JNCC report anyway).
It does state that there is a significant corelation between confirmed and/or probable persecution and the distribution of "muirburn" (the distribution of which is considered representative of the distribution of grouse moors), and that success of nests seems to show a negative correlation with these persecution incidents. This is presumably what is then quoted as "strong evidence" that persecution is causing a reduction of nesting attempts and/or success in 5 (out of 20) Natural Heritage Zones defined in the report.
It is suggested that persecution is the main limiting factor for Hen Harriers in these areas, but this cannot be shown to be true (although I personally believe that it is at least one of the factors). It is also only a suggestion that the persecution is likely to be carried out because of the landowners wishes (rather than undertaken personally by irresponsible keepers because of their own beliefs).
Persecution may well be the main reason for the low numbers of Hen Harriers, but it is also possible that even without persecution numbers would be falling in some areas (as appears to be the case on the Isle of Man).

[rossy]

right heres what ive read and everyone else, ( the hen harrier framework )which concluded, that illegal killing IS the BIGGEST SINGLE FACTOR, affecting the species, and that is having a dramatic impact on the population IN CORE PARTS of the HEN HARRIERS range in northern england and scotland, so cant understand of where your coming from, its in black and white, but do you know something we dont ? or am i not understanding whats before me ? . im off out now but look forward to your answer roy, regards rossy.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by rossy

right heres what ive read and everyone else, ( the hen harrier framework )which concluded, that illegal killing IS the BIGGEST SINGLE FACTOR, affecting the species, and that is having a dramatic impact on the population IN CORE PARTS of the HEN HARRIERS range in northern england and scotland, so cant understand of where your coming from, its in black and white, but do you know something we dont ? or am i not understanding whats before me ? . im off out now but look forward to your answer roy, regards rossy.

I agree with this, im a little unsure where Roy is coming from or the point hes trying to make. Its quite clear that persecution is the major limiting factor with this species. Perhaps the lack of management on the isle of man is making habitats less suitable, or they are more easily targeted by predators or egg thieves.

[SheffieldLass]

Just over a week ago Scarborough Field Naturalists Society had an excellent talk given by a Natural England person who has been working on the issues of hen harriers for a number of years, monitoring them and working with landowners and gamekeepers. What was interesting was that his approach in the Vale of Bowland has been very successful and he has got the gamekeepers now watching over hen harriers rather than popping them off .... A very good example of where dialogue between different parties is showing results. It is all too easy to take the militant anti-gamekeeper stance, I can often feel that tendency myself , so it was a salutory reminder to me that dialogue is most likely the best approach, and the manner of that dialogue crucial. Gamekeepers and estate owners who are living peacefully with hen harriers are the most likely people to eventually persuade the hardened anti-hen harrier keepers and landowners to change their ways.

Also satellite tracking is now proving very useful as it is showing just where the hen harriers go, which they knew very little about before. So discovering the habitats that they prefer, which in England seems to be red grouse moors .. what was also interesting, English hen harriers are seemingly conditioned to favour grouse moors with heather for breeding in, (thought to be as that is where they were born) and shun human habitation, whereas in Ireland they nest in all sorts of places, in bramble bushes just a few feet away from cottages ... now if the mainland British ones behaved a little more like the Irish ones then they'd probably do rather better ...

Satellite tracking also reveals where hen harriers disappear ... so this could actually be the start of a good deterrent .. if they keep disappearing right in the middle of particular estates, with the date and time logged, then, well, it becomes much more difficult for them to deny persecution isn't happening right there on those estates, and they'll become much more aware that they are being watched .....

[RoyW]

The points that I was trying to make (admittedly badly) are:

1). It does no good at all to tar all grouse moor owners/keepers with the same brush. The implication from the RSPB press release is that all grouse moors persecute Hen Harriers, and that without this persecution (but with no other changes) Hen Harrier numbers would be guaranteed to increase.
As SheffieldLass has said, it is important not to alienate the gamekeepers/land owners who do not persecute raptors by suggesting that they are all "the enemy" (try a google search for "James Marchington Avery's swansong" for a shooters opinion on the press release).

2). The JNCC Hen Harrier Framework report does conclude that persecution is having an effect on the breeding success/abundance of Hen Harriers in some regions of Scotland, but it cannot be proven that Hen Harriers would be increasing in these regions if there was no persecution.
The persecution incidents themselves were represented by 104 confirmed and probable reported incidents over a period of 17 years (an average of just over 6 a year for the whole of Scotland), with no indication of how recently they were recorded in each region. This means that it is not only being assumed that persecution is the main factor affecting success in these regions, it is also being assumed that the persecution is more than a few isolated incidents, and is ongoing in all regions.
Successful pairs in these regions apparently fledge relatively high numbers of young - but that doesn't automatically mean that the ones that fail would have if there was no persecution.

I am not naive enough to believe that persecution does not take place (the fact that there are any recorded incidences shows that it does), and I do personally believe that if persecution could be eliminated we would see an increase in Hen Harriers in most areas. We do not however know that this would be the case - it may be that there are habitat problems in these areas (perhaps even someting associated with changes in grouse moor management?) that have not been identified. If the causes for the decline on the Isle of Man are unknown how can we know that the same problem isn't affecting the Scottish grouse moors?





Illegal persecution of all raptors needs to be brought to an end, and hopefully raptor populations will increase when it is. At the momment I believe that it is too easy to blame persecution without considering whether there are other factors that are also having a limiting effect without us understanding them.
Habitat issues were also identified in the JNCC report, with habitat improvement apparently linked to increases in at least one region, and in one of the three Scottish regions that the report states held 50% of the Scottish Hen Harrier population food shortages were identified as a problem (linked to overgrazing).

Land owners, gamekeepers and shooters will continue to argue that there is little evidence of persecution. This may largely be due to the low likelihood of discovering and gathering evidence for such crimes, but is there really any point in risking alienating the ones who might help when there is only real evidence that this sort of crime happens occasionally?

[Dogghound]

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This paper says success is higher when there is no persecution (obvious I know). I dont have a problem with gamekeepers I work alongside some of them. Although I believe that they are the key limiting factor in hen harrier populations struggling to increase. Could the isle of man population not just be moving into vacant more desirable habitat in mainland Britain? If isle of man habitat is not managed for grouse its probably over grazed or reverting to woodland, or changing use completely.