Culling Corvids

[Amarillo]

The worrying thing is that Songbird Survival keep being given coverage in the newspapers (Magpies and crows to be culled to protect songbirds - Telegraph) and even the BBC BBC - BBC Radio 5 live Programmes - 5 live Drive (at 2hrs 38mins) seem to give them more coverage than their status deserves. In this radio 5 programme, the presenter presents the RSPB and SS as the "two largest bird charities" without pointing out that SS's membership is only about 1500 people and that they have absolutely zero credibility among conservationists.

I always thought Songbird Survival were harmless, but I'm starting to think they are actually very dangerous because the people who run it seem to be extremely influential. You can prove almost anything with statistics and if its in the interests of gamekeepers and pigeon fanciers to get rid of birds of prey, then Songbird Survival will "prove" that they are a threat to songbirds.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by RoyW

SongBird Survival.
It's their own study (which will apparently cost £88,000). The fact that they are funding the study doesn't mean that the findings will automatically be biased towards their viewpoint though.

....True - Not guaranteed or necessarily. But, what organisation would spend £88k funding a study which might contradict their viewpoint?

I would hope that this particular organisation can be truly objective.... But I'm not holding my breath.

If you apply all these 'protect-this-by-culling-that' actions ad infinitum, what will you end up with?

I do wish human beings wouldn't keep 'playing god' and that they'd stop interfering with nature!

[Jonathan]

Corvids are culled legally every day of the year throughout the UK, so I'm not quite sure why some people seemed to be getting upset over this proposed experiment? Personally, if it proves the SST wrong, then it will be worth it just to shut them up! The GWCT did a similar thing on their experimental farm at Loddington - The Allerton Project. The work is ongoing but here are some initial results (from 2007):

http://www.gwct.org.uk/documents/sin...lds_report.pdf

On the Allerton farm until 2002, magpie and crow numbers were reduced from 10 and eight pairs to zero. Rook numbers were reduced from 55 nests to between 25 to 30, to reduce crop damage and pillaging the game feeders. Likewise woodpigeons, of which there had been some 30 pairs, were kept to near zero.

Game and open-field birds
Unsurprisingly wild pheasants doubled, red-legged partridges increased from two to 16 pairs. Skylarks (36 to 37 pairs) were plentiful throughout.

Hedgerow and thicket residents
Many common garden birds fall into this group and although none were scarce at Allerton, the crow and magpie control seemed to boost their numbers considerably. Wren (47 to 141 pairs), dunnock (46 to 144 pairs), robin (54 to 110 pairs), blackbird (66 to 143 pairs), song thrush (14 to 56 pairs). All these species declined after predator control was stopped.

Tree-hole nesters
These garden favourites seem largely immune to magpie and crow predation and they don’t venture far from the woods and gardens. None of the birds showed much improvement in number - Marsh tit (four to seven pairs), blue tit (46 to 51 pairs), great tit (21 to 30 pairs) and long-tailed tit (four to nine pairs), although the latter is not a hole nester.

Resident seed-eating finches
Most finches increased after 1992 at Allerton. Chaffinch (135 to 229 pairs), greenfinch (15 to 62 pairs), goldfinch (three to14 pairs), linnet (10 to 25 pairs) and bullfinch (six to12 pairs). All these birds took advantage of the pheasant feeders and set-aside cover crops, and all but the goldfinch dropped in number when predator control stopped. They are open nesters and easily spotted by magpies. Only the yellowhammer (57 to 55 pairs) seemed to be unaffected. Their habit of nesting in thick vegetation on or near the ground makes their nests difficult to find.

Migratory warblers and flycatchers
Four out of five species improved with game conservation and this was most clear-cut for blackcap (19 to 38 pairs), chiffchaff (two to 10 pairs), willow warbler (28 to 47 pairs) and spotted flycatcher (eight to 14 pairs). Both blackcap and chiffchaff continued to increase after the predator control stopped. Whitethroat (25 to 45 pairs) were on an upward trend anyway so it is difficult to credit game conservation for the improvement. Garden warbler (11 to nine pairs) numbers were unchanged.

The final few sentences from the GWCT more up-to-date website states:

What has happened for many species is that nesting success has declined from 1993 to 2001, as songbird breeding numbers have increased. This could be explained as a density dependent effect, with predators concentrating more on nests as a source of food when they were abundant.

This work is continuing, but the implication is that, while predator control may contribute to restoring breeding numbers of some species initially, the influence is not maintained when higher songbird numbers are established.

Cheers
Jonathan

[RKB]

Originally Posted by Amarillo

The worrying thing is that Songbird Survival keep being given coverage in the newspapers

Partly because of 'balance' and it's a good copy to pit them against the RSPB like pitting Andrew Wakefield against the BMA (MMR).

Also because the principal trustee is Viscount Coke, who is well-connected.

Coke runs the Holkham estate in Norfolk, home to breeding Spoonbills last year, Hen Harriers that seem to fall from the sky, and this is who he has been employing as his head keeper for the past few years: Nature reserve's gamekeeper accused of killing wild bird - Nature, Environment - The Independent

That's who is bank-rolling Songbird Survival.

[rossy]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Corvids are culled legally every day of the year throughout the UK, so I'm not quite sure why some people seemed to be getting upset over this proposed experiment? Personally, if it proves the SST wrong, then it will be worth it just to shut them up! The GWCT did a similar thing on their experimental farm at Loddington - The Allerton Project. The work is ongoing but here are some initial results (from 2007):

http://www.gwct.org.uk/documents/sin...lds_report.pdf

On the Allerton farm until 2002, magpie and crow numbers were reduced from 10 and eight pairs to zero. Rook numbers were reduced from 55 nests to between 25 to 30, to reduce crop damage and pillaging the game feeders. Likewise woodpigeons, of which there had been some 30 pairs, were kept to near zero.

Game and open-field birds
Unsurprisingly wild pheasants doubled, red-legged partridges increased from two to 16 pairs. Skylarks (36 to 37 pairs) were plentiful throughout.

Hedgerow and thicket residents
Many common garden birds fall into this group and although none were scarce at Allerton, the crow and magpie control seemed to boost their numbers considerably. Wren (47 to 141 pairs), dunnock (46 to 144 pairs), robin (54 to 110 pairs), blackbird (66 to 143 pairs), song thrush (14 to 56 pairs). All these species declined after predator control was stopped.

Tree-hole nesters
These garden favourites seem largely immune to magpie and crow predation and they don’t venture far from the woods and gardens. None of the birds showed much improvement in number - Marsh tit (four to seven pairs), blue tit (46 to 51 pairs), great tit (21 to 30 pairs) and long-tailed tit (four to nine pairs), although the latter is not a hole nester.

Resident seed-eating finches
Most finches increased after 1992 at Allerton. Chaffinch (135 to 229 pairs), greenfinch (15 to 62 pairs), goldfinch (three to14 pairs), linnet (10 to 25 pairs) and bullfinch (six to12 pairs). All these birds took advantage of the pheasant feeders and set-aside cover crops, and all but the goldfinch dropped in number when predator control stopped. They are open nesters and easily spotted by magpies. Only the yellowhammer (57 to 55 pairs) seemed to be unaffected. Their habit of nesting in thick vegetation on or near the ground makes their nests difficult to find.

Migratory warblers and flycatchers
Four out of five species improved with game conservation and this was most clear-cut for blackcap (19 to 38 pairs), chiffchaff (two to 10 pairs), willow warbler (28 to 47 pairs) and spotted flycatcher (eight to 14 pairs). Both blackcap and chiffchaff continued to increase after the predator control stopped. Whitethroat (25 to 45 pairs) were on an upward trend anyway so it is difficult to credit game conservation for the improvement. Garden warbler (11 to nine pairs) numbers were unchanged.

The final few sentences from the GWCT more up-to-date website states:

What has happened for many species is that nesting success has declined from 1993 to 2001, as songbird breeding numbers have increased. This could be explained as a density dependent effect, with predators concentrating more on nests as a source of food when they were abundant.

This work is continuing, but the implication is that, while predator control may contribute to restoring breeding numbers of some species initially, the influence is not maintained when higher songbird numbers are established.

Cheers
Jonathan

have you actually seen all these birds breeding or are you going off , what has been put, as like anyone else knows , that birds breeding are terrortorial, so do they all live together happily, , its codswallop and you know it, yes ive seen magpies, kill chicks, and crows , and i love watching pergrines in action, and the same with sparrowhawks doing whats natural, ive seen blackbirds attacking goldfinch chicks, but its nature, and man should not play god, what about the 55 million birds cats take out, does that not have an impact , you bet it does, but the shortsighted cretins dont take that into account, top and bottom of it is man is the reason for the decline , rossy.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by rossy

have you actually seen all these birds breeding or are you going off , what has been put, as like anyone else knows , that birds breeding are terrortorial, so do they all live together happily, , its codswallop and you know it, yes ive seen magpies, kill chicks, and crows , and i love watching pergrines in action, and the same with sparrowhawks doing whats natural, ive seen blackbirds attacking goldfinch chicks, but its nature, and man should not play god, what about the 55 million birds cats take out, does that not have an impact , you bet it does, but the shortsighted cretins dont take that into account, top and bottom of it is man is the reason for the decline , rossy.

I'm "going off" the GWCT's results from Allerton as, unsurprisingly, I haven't had chance to check all those pairs of birds at Loddington myself.

Not sure what sparrowhawks or peregrines have to do with culling corvids, cats too for that matter. And I confess I don't really understand what you mean when you say "as like anyone else knows , that birds breeding are terrortorial, so do they all live together happily", so I'm afraid I can't comment on that one.

Perhaps it's inadvisable to use such terms as "shortsighted cretins" in a sensible debate, but that's your choice. It hardly encourages me to take your comments seriously however.

Cheers
Jonathan

[vole-woman]

I notice Songbird Survival are present in at least two incarnations on Twitter, disseminating their misinformation on there. One ID is @SavingSongBirds and another is @uksongbirds . I'll try and keep an eye on them, though almost all the posts by others I've seen have been laughing at SS's attempt to hide their gamekeepers clothing from the general public.

Personally I have no issue with humane pest control, especially if it's to save other species. But I loathe this lot because their 'campaign' is all so obviously one big fat lie. Rich people trying to scam money from the general public to subsidise their grouse-shooting for them, basically.

[Roger B.]

For "to protect songbirds" read "to boost the profits of shooting estates".

[thebeard]

well said

the whole predator-prey dynamics theory says that predators can only go so far without prey. They will never outnumber prey, as when their populations get big enough, competition will naturally control their numbers. Its why you only get a handful of kestrels in a habitat which contains hundreds of prey. if they gobble all the field voles up, there'll be no more to eat and they will die or leave the area.

i'm sure a cull of corvids/raptors would have to be given the OK by natural england/defra or whoever, SS can't just go around willy nilly banging crows and magpies out of the sky.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by thebeard

i'm sure a cull of corvids/raptors would have to be given the OK by natural england/defra or whoever, SS can't just go around willy nilly banging crows and magpies out of the sky.

....I'm not supporting the 'SS' (I thought Mr Hitler was no longer with us) but just because Natural England or DEFRA give something the OK, it doesn't automatically make it alright.

If birds of prey are in abundance it indicates that their prey is also in abundance and so on, and hence that there is a healthy natural balance. I'm already fed up of saying that man shouldn't play god.