Hen Harrier numbers issue

[diggleken]

Hello all,
I cant find a thread on this, it appears to have got under the WAB radar.
Yet again we seem to have conflicting views on Hen Harrier numbers from the shooting lobby and conservation groups.
This article was in birdguides from the RSPB:
RSPB: What future for England's Hen Harriers?
It starts with this:-
''With only seven successful nests in 2010, a large shadow hangs over the future of the Hen Harrier as an English breeding species, unless the illegal killing of this bird of prey can be brought to a halt.

A comprehensive English Hen Harrier survey found that only 12 pairs attempted to nest in England this year, despite evidence showing there is enough habitat for over 300 pairs. Seven of these were successful, one more than in 2009, but it is only half the number of successful nesting pairs just three years ago. This graphically illustrates the continued danger of such a small population slipping into extinction as an English breeding species for a second time: historically, the Hen Harrier was persecuted to extinction across mainland Britain.

Five of the successful pairs (from 10 nesting attempts) were on the United Utilities estate in the Forest of Bowland in Lancashire, which remains this bird's only English stronghold.''

And I noticed there was an article in the local rag about it and it prompted a letter response from Adrian Blackmore from the Countryside Alliance saying that article was misleading:-

''Although Hen Harriers do not often settle to breed in England, they are regularly seen migrating over the english uplands in the spring and autumn,and the latest available figures estimated there to be 806 breeding pairs in the UK in 2004 - an increase of 41% since 1998.
Neither is the Hen Harrier a rare bird across Europe. Near the top of its food chain and with 167,000 nesting females, it is listed by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN)- the worlds main authority on the conservation status of species - as of 'least concern'.
Like all of the other UK's birds of Prey, which are currently at or near their highest numbers since records began, in some cases to the maximum density that the habitat can support, the Hen Harrier is not facing extinction.''

Well , thats alright then........................clearly this is the CA trying to justify or minimise the perception effect or put a biased slant on any hunting/killing of them in England, presumably by gamekeepers with Grouse moors to entertain shooters.
In short, there's lots of them and so why worry (by inference if we shoot/trap/kill them).
Unbelievable arrogance in my view by CA, plus taking figures weighted to substantiate their comments rather than the latest actual available it seems.
Any views out there?
Cheers
Ken

[Brocakat]

Where does the Countryside Alliance get those quote, "Latest available figures estimated there to be 806 breeding pairs in the U.K. in 2004 " from? ( which is an 'age' of 6 years ago )
And I cannot see any suggestion from this (IMO) rag-bag organisation - ( an organisation that was put together as a reaction to the [broken] pledge of Tony Blair to ban all foxhunting ) ------ as to why this figure has crashed from 806 to, "12 pairs attempting to nest ".

If I had read that this gentleman was representing the - 'Country Land & Business Association' (Formerly the Country Landowners Association & still known as the C.L.A. ) - I would be slightly more worried , as that is a pillar of the rural establishment.

[captaincarot]

ken i totally agree with you.

the attitude of the shooters is disgraceful.
they have persecuted this species to the verge of extinction in england,

what is even more disgraceful is that they are supported by agricultural subsidies while doing it. so our tax money is actively supporting them.

[captaincarot]

Originally Posted by Brocakat

If I had read that this gentleman was representing the - 'Country Land & Business Association' (Formerly the Country Landowners Association & still known as the C.L.A. - I would be slightly more worried , as that is a pillar of the rural establishment.

their views don't differ

[Ukwildlifeo]

Like all of the other UK's birds of Prey, which are currently at or near their highest numbers since records began, in some cases to the maximum density that the habitat can support, the Hen Harrier is not facing extinction

Would that be their records from 10 years ago! And they say the RSPB are misleading...

[Jonners]

Part of the problem here is that the two sides are not talking about the same thing; one is talking about numbers of Hen Harriers in England, the other the whole of the UK. Scottish numbers of Hen Harrier are apparently in the hundreds, as reported by Scottish Natural Heritage:
"10 December 2009
The hen harrier remains one of the most threatened of all birds in the UK. Next year (2010) we will be carrying out a UK-wide survey of hen harriers, in partnership with the Scottish Raptor Study Groups and RSPB Scotland. The last survey (2004) estimated there to be 633 pairs in Scotland, 11 pairs in England, 43 pairs in Wales and 63 pairs in Northern Ireland."

Interestingly, although the figures given by SNH only report on 2004, they do still paint a bleak picture for the English population, and are concerned for the population of the bird in the UK too. The report, which makes very interesting reading, particularly on how Hen Harrier conservation and Red Grouse management have worked together on one Estate, can be found here.

[nigel_b]

There's two issues to me:

What are the correct and up to date numbers as they are tangentially apart and

Why would the CA put out such a statement?

Do they consider themselves expert on BoP numbers in general? How about owl numbers or thrushes or anything?

I don't know when the statement was made but assuming it is recently, using data 6 years out of date looks like fish, smells like fish and frankly is unquestionably, fish.

My reading of the CA statement frankly is simply "there's loads so shooting a few now and again is fine".

[ForestPaul]

The Countryside Alliance no more represents 'shooters' than the Animal Liberation Front represents birdwatchers, and the vast majority of people who shoot in the UK are very far from being rich toffs with country estates who blast away at anything that moves.

A recent study in the Orkneys, which has no shooting estates, as reported on Raptor Politics shows that sheep grazing had a huge effect on Hen Harrier numbers.

Orkney is largely free from persecution of birds of prey, and since 1975 the Hen Harrier population of the islands has been closely monitored. Between the early 1980s and mid-1990s sheep numbers on Orkney doubled, largely in response to CAP subsidies, and this was associated with dramatic declines in Hen Harriers - from 100 breeding females in the 1970s to just three successful nests in 1993. Subsequently, as sheep numbers have fallen in response to changes and reform of CAP subsidy, the harrier population has recovered.

No upper-class twits or trigger-happy gamekeepers involved, just sheep.

[nigel_b]

What's the suspected causal link in this case between rising sheep numbers and falling hen harrier numbers Paul? i.e. what's going on!?

[ForestPaul]

Originally Posted by nigel_b

What's the suspected causal link in this case between rising sheep numbers and falling hen harrier numbers Paul? i.e. what's going on!?

As I understand the findings, increased sheep grazing leads to less rough grassland which leads to less voles which leads to less hen harriers.