Crows Courts

[faz]

Originally Posted by theresa dockery

Yes, I found that amusing...a touch of pompous hypocrisy there!

I do hope I haven't caused too much offence on this thread btw, the attribution of 'human' traits to animals is a grey area - everyone has their own idea of where to draw the line.

On the one hand, I frown on people who 'humanize' their pets (insisting that dogs can fully understand human language and feel guilt when scolded etc.) but I also feel that humans should not be placed on a pedestal, elevated above all other animals in terms of the ability to feel emotion/pain/empathy or to act intelligently.

Mercy killing in corvids is a step too far for me. I have yet to see a believable account of mercy killing in any animal.

well said

[drooper]

On the subject of crows and behaviour to others - yesterday whilst out walking I saw a little egret (a first for me). The reason I noticed it was that it was being mobbed by crows. Now there are hundreds of birds on this stretch of the Thames in London - assorted ducks, geese, gulls, pigeons, plus swans, cormorants and herons. Yet this was the only bird I've seen being mobbed - and I'm guessing it wasn't a direct threat. Was it picked upon simply because the crows didn't recognise it?

[theresa dockery]

Originally Posted by faz

well said

Thanks!

[Brocakat]

I have heard of Rooks Parliaments from since my childhood of 40 years ago - but never been privileged to see one in action. I find the idea quite plausible, since these Corvids are intellegent AND communal creatures, and would find it easy to believe the other birds dealing with, for an example an egg thief from their own.
However, knowing Carrrion Crows are on the other hand - MUCH more solitary birds, well, - hmmm.......I dunno.

( My easy ident.-guide is that a Solitary Rook is most likely a Crow & a Flock of Crows - Rooks. Excepting when juvenile;- when a young Rook looks remarkably like a Crow! )

[RKB]

Originally Posted by Brocakat

( My easy ident.-guide is that a Solitary Rook is most likely a Crow & a Flock of Crows - Rooks. Excepting when juvenile;- when a young Rook looks remarkably like a Crow! )

Crows will often flock. They roost communally in the hundreds, and I've seen foraging flocks of over a hundred during the day.

[Brocakat]

I'd expect this to happen just in the Winter Months?

[boogle]

Hi all !

the so called babgers funeral is talked about in some parts around here.... usually by old timers smoking woodbines and is said to be only viewed by a small handful of poachers in secret many years ago.. it is said that when a old badger dies many badgers will travel from afar to pay respect and homage.and then help to dig a grave for the carcass...up to 30 or 40 badgers will attend.... once again like the original posting harder to disprove than prove..may i add if you believe this tosh... go to your local birdwatching meeting and start talking aloud about a crows court and see how quickly you get shunned by good birders !
like someone said..." aint it strange how ufo's dont land outside oxford or cambridge" ????
i am sure someone more educated than myself will give a good explanation about this subject ( and one or two have so far)!!! as clever as the corvids are....i doubt they are capable of forming defence, prosecution, judge and jury whilst selecting executioners as well..this is my last word on the subject as i am more interested in more worthwhile birding matters...thank you to those that agree that this is a pile of unfounded unsupported rubbish !

[Jonquil_d]

So we are left with two posters and a posters spouse who have all witnessed crows killing a crow....and an article in the New Scientist which looks at "Rook Parliaments" which deals with similar incidents in a closely related species.
I hope we can agree that such incidents (the killing of one bird by other members of its own species) have been seen to occur, even if at the moment we cannot put our hands on our hearts and say why the killings occur. Not sure anyone has done an exhaustive literature search but in the absence of more observed facts as opposed to possibly fanciful explanations that seems to be about that.

Apart from aerial mobbing which has been observed over a number of nature reserves by various birds on various birds I have only seen Jackdaws in an attack on a bird of another species.
Some poor Crow had settled on the ridge of a roof,probably quite unwittingly, directly over the point where the jackdaws had a nest. A group of four or five of them really went for the poor bird pecking at it, dive bombing it,dropping vertically from about four or five feet above it, and making an incredible shindig. Eventually the crow brought matters to an end by calmly flapping away from the attack whereupon the attacks ceased.

[RKB]

Originally Posted by Jonquil_d

So we are left with two posters and a posters spouse who have all witnessed crows killing a crow....and an article in the New Scientist which looks at "Rook Parliaments" which deals with similar incidents in a closely related species.
I hope we can agree that such incidents (the killing of one bird by other members of its own species) have been seen to occur, even if at the moment we cannot put our hands on our hearts and say why the killings occur. Not sure anyone has done an exhaustive literature search but in the absence of more observed facts as opposed to possibly fanciful explanations that seems to be about that.

Apart from aerial mobbing which has been observed over a number of nature reserves by various birds on various birds I have only seen Jackdaws in an attack on a bird of another species.
Some poor Crow had settled on the ridge of a roof,probably quite unwittingly, directly over the point where the jackdaws had a nest. A group of four or five of them really went for the poor bird pecking at it, dive bombing it,dropping vertically from about four or five feet above it, and making an incredible shindig. Eventually the crow brought matters to an end by calmly flapping away from the attack whereupon the attacks ceased.

The posters and spouse are not trained biologists used to recording and interpretting this stuff, which was underlined in the New Scientist article (which seemed to be discrediting the whole idea). They might be blind to something crucial, and their only point of reference is human behaviour (as they are not experts on crow behaviour). As such, they're interpretting bird behavior through a human prism, which we call anthropomorphism, and is how Johnny Morris made his living on children's TV. Note that Johnny doesn't feature in any animal behaviour textbooks!

There has been a huge literature search, which was conducted for BWP in the 1990s. It only mentions 'parliaments' in passing, and refers to them being an aerial display.

Yes, birds kill each other, but what this 'parliament' idea is doing is classifying it as cultural ceremony or ritual. That is a huge huge claim for birds. We're still trying to decide if the great apes show this behaviour, apart from us.

Whatever is going on when a Rook is killed in front of others, it isn't any kind of justice, punishment or disease prevention. It's probably just two birds having a fight over sex or food, and other Rooks in the vicinity getting excited by it and watching.

[boogle]

not exactly a crows court is it jonquil_d ???? where a massive group stands in a open field ( open to predation ) squacking madly at the bird in the centre, before two move forward and attack it whilst the rest scream madly ..then another 2 take there places and finish it off...still waiting for some photo evidence or video footage...but i aint holding my breath....it is wrong of all of us to impose human behaviour upon birds or animals...wildlife moves acts and behaves in no way shape or form like ours ...they live to survive and reproduce...and i love watching each and every wonderful chance i get to observe them at peace and undisturbed every time i go out and about...and will carry on doing so without falling into the crows court claptrap that was probably posted by someone that talks a lot but gets out and about very little !!!!