Help me id.ing this bird please?

[StRoRo]

Hi
Can you please advise me on an Id for this bird?
Im not very good at identifying birds and I think this is a Juvinille which makes thing harder for me.

I think it's a Marsh Warbler or more likely a Reed Warbler.

This was the best shot I got of it
Sorry about the grain, there was very little light and I had to have it on ISO 1250

[aeshna5]

Reed Warbler.

[Picidae]

Where and when did you take the photo stroro? And what made you consider 'Marsh'?

(I'd be interested to know what features Aeshna is using to rule out a Marsh they can be notoriously difficult to separate, even in the field/hand?)

(i'm not necessarily disagreeing btw although a rear view photo would be very helpful and clearer picture of the feet!)

[faz]

voice is the only reliable distinction between them but i woulkd go for marsh warbler as the one in the picture has a olive hue about it but it is a very close call not 100% sure

[StRoRo]

Originally Posted by Picidae

Where and when did you take the photo stroro? And what made you consider 'Marsh'?

(I'd be interested to know what features Aeshna is using to rule out a Marsh they can be notoriously difficult to separate, even in the field/hand?)

(i'm not necessarily disagreeing btw although a rear view photo would be very helpful and clearer picture of the feet!)

I took that photo yesterday about 1pm in an area of Reed / Marsh land ( know thats not helpful ) near my local canal. 20 yards to one side of this picture I would describe as marsh and 20 yards the other is typical wetland reed beds.

I really struggled trying to id. this, I was in favour for Reed Warbler before I posted. I searched the tinterwebs but would find a few images of one bird which made me think it was that but would see many examples which it didn't look like.
I could see some minor differences between the 2 birds, but as this bird is a scruffy begger it was hard to spot.
I only got 4 shots of this and this is the only side shot I got before it jumped higher on the reed and was clearer. The other 2 shots the bird is looking straight at me.

[Jonners]

I guess that Aeshna was favouring Reed Warbler because Marsh Warblers are much scarcer in the UK than Reed Warblers. But when Pic asks where you saw it, he's looking for where in the UK/world ... This might help firm up which bird it could be.

[StRoRo]

Originally Posted by Jonners

I guess that Aeshna was favouring Reed Warbler because Marsh Warblers are much scarcer in the UK than Reed Warblers. But when Pic asks where you saw it, he's looking for where in the UK/world ... This might help firm up which bird it could be.

Ahhh, Wigan North West England

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by faz

voice is the only reliable distinction between them but i woulkd go for marsh warbler as the one in the picture has a olive hue about it but it is a very close call not 100% sure

Ok - here's an essay!! (well it's good practice for me too )

I agree re: voice identification but Reeds can also mimic quite well and obviously Marsh can mimic Reeds! I also agree re. the olive/greyish hue (which would rule out a juvenile Marsh imo which is much redder and more easily confused with juvenile Reed), the tones look very grey to me and the bill looked on the shortish side which is why I would have been interested in seeing the rump (adult Marsh never have reddish rumps, they are more greyish/yellowish) and tertial/primary tips (the primaries tips on Marsh show white edges and they contrast with the mantle colour).

Unfortunately, a lot of so called 'diagnostic' features separating Marsh from Reed are not that reliable for example late summer A.scirpaceus can resemble palustris as they become more worn. There can be considerable overlap so it's commonly accepted, as FAZ says, that voice recognition is the most reliable feature (with the above proviso!). However, there are several points that do favour Reed (which is why I asked about location (and!) habitat - Marsh Warblers, now a scarce breeder in the Uk is largely localised to SE England (and parts of Worcs I understand?). Marsh tend to be more scrub orientated and are seen less commonly in reeds than scrub/shrub trees, although I have seen them very close to water. Reed Warblers generally have darker legs than Reed (they look quite dark in this image although on that last pic, the soles of the feet appear yellow?! - again another possible overlapping feature - claw colour is probably a better feature here with Marsh showing pale claws - palish brown). The problem with identifying confusion species from photos is light can play a big part in producing cosmetic aberrations and also angles of shots distort proportions of subject bird. Another difficulty here, is that without clear sharp images of the rear view or at least side view of the bird, it's very difficult to assess age/state of moult etc let alone tertial length ratios cf. to primaries etc!

In the Autumn, it's generally much much harder to separate them on plumage - in Spring/early summer, Marsh will show nice sharp edges to terts and prims with silvery white edges being in freshly moulted plumage whereas Reed's tend to be much plainer and less contrasty but you need rather better images to determine that than we have here (no offence to photographer btw)

In short, without sharper pictures of the rear view I'd be really hesitant to call this 100% - on balance, location and habitat favors Reed but using that criteria, I'm sure many more Marsh Warblers go misidentified as Reed Warblers in the mid-late summer in the UK than vice versa!!

[StRoRo]

Thanks Picidae
that was very informative.

[faz]

Originally Posted by StRoRo

Thanks Picidae
that was very informative.

tes it was many thanks