Pigeon Fanciers and Birds of Prey

[SamR]

Well, it seems the anti-raptor brigade are at it again. Pigeon fanciers are lobbying to have protection of peregrines and sparrowhawks removed in order to cull them in the interests of pigeon racing. They seem to "believe" that high populations of raptors will wipe out songbird populations, and are refusing to accept other factors such as climate change and the incredibly harsh winter we have experienced this year, however this apparent concern for songbirds seems to be a front which will allow them more coverage in the eyes of the public. I know their feud against our winged predators has been going on for years now, but somehow I can't justify the concept of culling raptors for the benefit of one minority party.
I am currently studying ecology and conservation, and, with a bit of common sense, anyone can see that a population of predators cannot realistically exceed that of the maximum capacity of their prey: if there aren't enough prey animals the predator cannot support itself and therefore must move on or die out. Contrary to popular belief, the population of predators does not dictate the population of prey, but the other way around. A healthy population of predators is an indicator of a healthy, sustainable population of prey
Below is a link to their facebook page. Feel free to leave any comments
Rasbull-Lofts
ATB,
Sam

[Amoeba]

This is for real? They really think that established species of birds of prey, who have been a part of the ecosystem for thousands if not millions of years, are going to just all of a sudden wipe all the songbirds out? No. Predators don't just wipe out their food sources.

Introduction of an alien predator is one possible exception.

Even during times of dramatic climate effects and disasters that bring their prey populations to a low you're more likely to get predators starving and dying than wiping out what is left.

Though you pretty much said that anyway, lol.

I just find it a bit sad how you get some people who think it would be wonderful to live in a world with no predators and just all the 'nice' animals. It just doesn't work that way, and if it were to happen, the result would NOT be harmony and rainbows and sweetness.

[animartco]

I would love you to be right Sam R, but I think too many predators can seriously damage the pry population. The problem is that if they make EVERYTHING rarer before the natural controls set in, then the rarest prey species will become extinct.
However, I don't know what it is like up country but the worst threat to the songbirds down here in Kent is the woodpigeon, closely followed by the collar dove. These have seen an enormous surge in numbers over the last three or four years and are out competing all other species for nest sites. ANY bird that reaches pest proportions needs to be culled, whether it is eagle owls sparrows or red kites. Protection for introduced and recently rare species can be left in place for too long once the species has started to thrive.

[Gill Catton]

This has been covered quite a bit in the past on WAB.

It won't happen don't worry.

Its loss of habitat and food supply that affects populations not predators they have evolved alongside for all time.

[darrenm]

this old chesnut again

People who advocate 'controlling' raptors have no clue about very basic ecology. If there are not enough prey items any predator soon starves out.... it's that simple.

If it's an illegally introduced or alien species causing problems to native wildlife then controls may need to be considered and applied. Peregrines and Red Kite are part of our natural wildlife which suffered generations of persicution at the hands of 'idiots' and only within the last few generations have they started to make a comeback.

Is this not about money? and if it is part of the Song Bird Protection League's rantings those people need to wake up and see that the cause of our song bird species decline has been caused by people and not Raptors.

[SamR]

Originally Posted by animartco

I would love you to be right Sam R, but I think too many predators can seriously damage the pry population. The problem is that if they make EVERYTHING rarer before the natural controls set in, then the rarest prey species will become extinct.
However, I don't know what it is like up country but the worst threat to the songbirds down here in Kent is the woodpigeon, closely followed by the collar dove. These have seen an enormous surge in numbers over the last three or four years and are out competing all other species for nest sites. ANY bird that reaches pest proportions needs to be culled, whether it is eagle owls sparrows or red kites. Protection for introduced and recently rare species can be left in place for too long once the species has started to thrive.

So what happened in nature before humans were around to decide which animals live and die? Predators will not wipe out a food source as the numbers can never reach those proportions without disease or starvation reducing them due to overcrowding. However, it rarely reaches this point as without sufficient nutrition the mortality rate of young and breeding predators increases exponentially. The only creatures these rules don't apply to are humans (well, so far anyway) . Not wanting to be antagonistic but culling is a purely human concept, as is the concept of "pest proportions". Nature is in a perpetual state of flux, with populations rising and falling in response to stimuli such as climate, natural disasters, food sources etc. We tend to see nature as a "snapshot" but it is in constant motion. Culling of any native species as a conservation method is outdated and harmful in my opinion and some other way to combat conflicts such as this need to be found. If we keep on culling species to protect other species where do we draw the line? For example will we take up whaling again to protect mackerel? The problem here is not songbirds, it is racing pigeons. I just can't see that we will have raptors culled to protect the interests of one group.
ATB
Sam

[davejg]

It does'nt seem that long ago th rspb were advocating culling magpies for the very same songbird reason. I would have thought a racing pidgeon would be harder work to catch than a fat old woody, I suspect the real reason behind this is one (or more) top pidgeon racers have lost a couple of good/valuable birds recently.

[Ukwildlifeo]

This would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that 485 people think there is an RSPB conspiracy to kill all the songbirds. People are being mislead by manipulative folk with an alterior motive...

[darrenm]

when you ask such groups to provide real scientific evidence to back up their claims and argument it falls flat and is totally flawed.

I contacted the Song Bird Protection League a few years back when they were spouting off similar rubbish on Radio 4 at the time and asked them to produce the scientific evidence to back up their claims and a few days later had a very abusive e-mail back from them.

I then contacted all the bird and wildlife groups in my area to make them aware of this groups intentions and of their attitude towards people who do not agree with their views. Some people i knew had almost been taken in by their emotional ranting and were very concerned once they knew how this organisation was behaving. That particular group was also set up has a charity based trust and was at the time talking of raising money to 'prove' their argument and claims.

This whole issue is about money and nothing more and yet another attempt to manipulate well meaning people into agreeing to culls of wild native raptor populations and some will not be happy until they have returned the country back to Victorian attitudes towards our own native BOP species.

[rossy]

a few months ago not far from me a peregrine took up residence, a few weeks later the police got info that someone ie a pigeon owner had put a price tag on the peregrine, so they made it clear what the consequences would be. i can see from the owners point of view and would understand if his or her prize bird was eaten, but they dont realise that every time they take to the skies they are after food, birds feed at certain times of the day, and when breeding ,the pigeon mob could be notified to keep their birds in, i know its not easy to do, on the other hand councils will welcome them as they class feral pigeons as vermin, how many do they eat per day ? any falconer on here got a figure, rossy