Another ID, willow tit?

[Joe662]

I think im on the right track saying either marsh or willow tit. Im thinking willow due to what seems like lighter band on wing?



Lighter band seen more clearly in this next pic

[Dogghound]

I think Marsh tit.

[david156]

Hi

99% marsh tit.

Its all in the bill.
Have a look at the marsh tit / willow tit threads for id info. Some of the info there is very usefull.

Cheers David

[Joe662]

ok ty, least im gettin closer

[AshLee]

Marsh Tit for me Why? Cheek pattern and pale mark on bill.

This was quoted in another thread and makes interesting reading:

Separating British Willow Tits and Marsh Tits remains difficult and many of the published identification criteria have been shown to be unreliable or highly subjective.With experience, separation of these two species can be straightforward, but it may not be possible to assign all individuals to species (particularly juveniles and those not seen or heard well) and it is best to
leave these birds unidentified.
Features such as cap, bib, structure, colour of underparts, habitat and behaviour (except that of extensive nest excavation) appear to have
limited or negligible value for identification, owing to the degree of overlap. Tail shape is of use only in the hand.Wing panel is more useful and less subjective, but is also undermined by a large degree of variation, overlap and misinterpretation, and should be used with caution, as a supporting characteristic only. Cheek pattern has less overlap than wing panel and appears to be a more reliable plumage feature (discounting juveniles), particularly the subtle warm buff neck sides on Willow Tits (where present) and a clear transition from white to cold grey-brown on Marsh Tits. Cheek pattern may also be easier to see than wing panel in the field. Bill marks
offer the most objective and reliable visual means of separation but may be very difficult to see in the field or obscured on photographs and are therefore primarily of use for birds in the hand. Where visible, however, presence or
absence of bill marks has a very high degree of reliability on its own.
Voice remains the most reliable distinguishing feature in the field, notably the diagnostic pitchou call of the Marsh Tit, which is unequivocal for identification. The longer, more buzzing ‘dee’ note of the Willow Tit’s ‘chick-adee’ call is also diagnostic once learnt, although confusion may be caused by unfamiliarity or where county recorders receive only an ambiguous written description. Furthermore, lone birds or those visiting feeders may not call
at all. Song is very useful, although the slow Marsh Tit variant is a potential pitfall. Juvenile begging calls are also diagnostic but are of limited value due to their brief availability.
While some identification criteria have been refined and improved, some discarded and the reliability of others quantified, the technique for the separation of Marsh and Willow Tits remains much as that stated by Perrins (1964) – in that no single physical feature is conclusively diagnostic, and a combination of several features must be used (table 2). Assessment of the
following characteristics, in descending order of reliability and importance, is recommended for accurate separation: voice, presence/absence of
bill marks (primarily in the hand or on photographs), cheek pattern, tail feather lengths (only in the hand), and presence/absence of broad
pale margins to the tertials and secondaries that contrast strongly with the mantle. Bib shape and cap gloss may occasionally be useful but should be used only with extreme caution as minor supporting features.
BB review paper (Nov 2009)

[Joe662]

wow thanks for the info. Certainly not as clear cut as i thought!!!

[Guinnessman1974]

I saw a Marsh Tit today, for the first time, it was calling in the loud repetitive 'Pit-chu' which was how I identified it.

I think if it had not been calling, I would still be wondering whether it was a Willow or Marsh Tit!