Marsh Tit or Willow Tit

[pitre]

This tit has been with us for the last few days.Thought it was a coal tit at first as we have a few around, but it has a black cap and a small ? bib
Help please from the experts

[david156]

Hi.

It is a marsh or willow tit but which one is very hard to judge. There are some suggestions about bib size and gloosy heads but both species can overlap these identifing features. One more reliable ID feature is in the colour of the bill. Marsh Tits show a narrow pale margin on the cutting edge of the mandibles, which is lacking on the wholly dark bills of Willow Tits. They are a bit of a pain to ID unless they are making a noise!
One thing to remember is that Willow Tits are rarer than Marsh Tits.

Cheers David

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by david156

Marsh Tits show a narrow pale margin on the cutting edge of the mandibles, which is lacking on the wholly dark bills of Willow Tits.

Cheers David

Many of these points and lots more have been discussed on previous threads and instead of constantly repeating them as identifying criteria (somewhat inaccurately at times I've noted!) I suggest it's preferable for people read through some of the older threads including this one (and the links to papers I've posted too!).

Confirmation before Gallery upload.

Both Marsh and Will can show pale cutting edges to lower mandibles especially if worn or bill is open, but 98% of Marsh Tit show a small pale spot under the nostril just on the upper mandible which is the identifying feature referred to.

This will explain the feature looked for clearly and it's worth a read.
http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigratio...broughton1.pdf

However, it's worth noting that these were ringing studies and it's a hard feature to identify in the field/or from photos since it's hard to determine whether it's light reflection (as in the photo here).

[watsthat]

Yes; the old marsh/willow conundrum:

I am no expert, who is?

I will say that I had a Marsh Tit calling, locally about 5 years ago and there was no mistake. Since then however, although I have confidently identified Willow Tits regularly by call I never confidently identified a Marsh Tit. So either; Marsh Tits are very rare where I live and Willow Tits are very common or I am totally up a gum tree

Cheers Pete

[Adam Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by watsthat

Yes; the old marsh/willow conundrum:

I am no expert, who is?

I will say that I had a Marsh Tit calling, locally about 5 years ago and there was no mistake. Since then however, although I have confidently identified Willow Tits regularly by call I never confidently identified a Marsh Tit. So either; Marsh Tits are very rare where I live and Willow Tits are very common or I am totally up a gum tree

Cheers Pete

There is a southerly bias for Marsh Tits and a northerly bias for Willow Tits.

[ChrisJB]

Originally Posted by watsthat

Yes; the old marsh/willow conundrum:

I am no expert, who is?

I will say that I had a Marsh Tit calling, locally about 5 years ago and there was no mistake. Since then however, although I have confidently identified Willow Tits regularly by call I never confidently identified a Marsh Tit. So either; Marsh Tits are very rare where I live and Willow Tits are very common or I am totally up a gum tree

Cheers Pete

You have a point here Pete. I know they do overlap in places, but from my Lancashire experiences of these two species, each one has a distinct habitat preference and are very rarely encountered together. For example, round Pennington Flash, only willow tits are found, in marsh, willow-carr type habitat. Whilst further north, around Silverdale, only marsh tits are found (as far as I know). Here they are associated with more mature, drier, woodland habitat. There is suitable willow-carr habitat in Silverdale, at Leighton Moss, but I've never seen a willow tit here. However, I do recall a marsh tit turning up at Pennington several years ago.

Regards, Chris

[RKB]

It's a Marsh Tit. The bill spot is clearly visible - you can tell thsi isn't a trick of the light as the light is coming from the opposite direction (compare both sides of the feeder).

Watsthat - Marsh Tits are common on the Wolds, Willow now very rare there, you get both Marsh and Willow between the Wolds and York/Donny, but Marsh does not occur in Holderness. Willow used to be common in Holderness but are now extinct.

[watsthat]

Originally Posted by RKB

It's a Marsh Tit. The bill spot is clearly visible - you can tell thsi isn't a trick of the light as the light is coming from the opposite direction (compare both sides of the feeder).

Watsthat - Marsh Tits are common on the Wolds, Willow now very rare there, you get both Marsh and Willow between the Wolds and York/Donny, but Marsh does not occur in Holderness. Willow used to be common in Holderness but are now extinct.

Thanks RKB. One or both are very common around Market Weighton and regarding the call, (the only way I would confidently separate them), its surprising how infrequently they do give a diagnostic call. When I do get a reliable call, its Willow tit, which contradicts your statement?

Pete

[RKB]

Originally Posted by watsthat

Thanks RKB. One or both are very common around Market Weighton and regarding the call, (the only way I would confidently separate them), its surprising how infrequently they do give a diagnostic call. When I do get a reliable call, its Willow tit, which contradicts your statement?

Pete

No, both occur around Market Weighton, depending on habitat, but both are patchy. It just depends on site. Though some sites have both. Once you get on the Wolds, it's virtually all Marsh, and once you get to Thorne/Doncaster it's all Willow. Around York, it's both!

[davecatt]

Watsthat
I can confirm Willow Tit in two places near you, last summer both confirmed by call, Along beck beside dissused railway line just east of Weighton, and bridle path by the beck on Towthorpe farm.

Could give more info on both spp locally but don't want to hijack thread
(Appoligies pitre)

RKB - Watsthat - PM me if you like
Dave